What is Lau Gar Kung fu?

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by Rataca100, Feb 26, 2017.

  1. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member


    I could be wrong, I am not a historian. but from what I have seen the Lau gar practiced by different hung gar schools looks basically the same. But the Lau gar practiced by British Lau gar looks very different from that of the Hung.
     
  2. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    interesting!
     
  3. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Well as the Lau Gar in Hung Gar objectively isn't 5 families Lau Gar Yau would be right.
    Also Yau doesn't have to be lying, he could just be wrong in a manner that is very common in Chinese martial arts. Alternatively he could be right in a manner that is very common in Chinese martial arts.
    When what we would now recognise as professional Kung Fu schools came into being in the second half of the 19th century they adopted the Confucian structures that were the norms in polite society. This is where we start to see the idea of stylistic purity, loyalty to the teacher and lineage. To conform to Confucian ideals styles needed to be descended from a worthy ancestor. Most martial artists were illiterate and couldn't tell you their lineage beyond their Sigung (and style was more fluid and personal before this point anyway). Therefore you get a proliferation of created histories, often involving famous historical figures (Yue Fei), folk heroes, characters from popular fiction and triad folklore. This was then exacerbated by the rise of literacy and the explosion of martial arts print media in the early Republican period.
    At this point if styles didn't have a name and a lineage they had credibility issues, so lots just adopted a "close enough" identity and history. I'd suggest that a lot of "village" Hung Gar systems have little connection to Hung Hei Gung (who indeed may not even exist as a historical figure) and instead owe their name to the success of Lam Sai Wing's books.
    Therefore potentially NEITHER system is actually Lau Gar, but it's not really that important.
     
  4. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    So if I start teaching wing chun copying it off YT, and call it authentic "Choi le foot" your fine with that?
     
  5. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    That's entirely different. Indeed such strawman is beneath you.
     
  6. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    ok your right, I am pretty awesome (only online I assure you) I agree!

    This is definitely more of a shade of gray type situation, it still is somewhat misleading, no?
     
  7. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    If I recall - and it has been MANY years since I had any interest in Lau Gar - the Lau Gar as taught within Hung Gar, are not "Lau Gar" the style, but from a Mok Gar practitioner whose name was Lau.

    The Lau Gar group in the UK produced some very tough fighters, and indeed Alfie Lewis trained there for a number of years and still pays respects to the organisation.

    It is possible the Lau Gar tale as passed by Jeremy is false and made up by him, it is possible it is false and made up by who taught him (his grandfather IIR) but the end product at least has a solid pedigree....which is more than can be said for many "clear lineage" stylists in other systems
     
  8. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    out of general interest, who put together the lau gar kickboxing system?

    Was it JY?

    Generally I think the matter of honesty is really important, to me lineage doesnt really matter (unless its your looking for that), but lying about lineage does matter, does that make sense?

    (not that im saying JY is, its just a bit more complicated then it first seems.)
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2017
  9. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Again it's been a while, but the story is that yes he did as a way for his guys to compete and test themselves - probably akin to what Alan Orr does with his Wing Chun guys

    edit: I did a swift google and found this -

    The founder of Lau Gar, Lau Sam Ngan, believed that Gee Yau Bok Gaik (sparring practice) was more effective than forms training
    to prepare the student for real life situations


    So it looks like at some level it is inherent to the style
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2017
  10. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    is which case, the guy obviously has a good understanding!
     
  11. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    check my edit :)
     
  12. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    I agree with that principle!
     
  13. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    likewise!
     
  14. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    At the risk of repeating myself. This opinion is widely held throughout traditional Chinese arts. Speaking as a traditional southern martial artist - forms are not considered an alternative to sparing, they do not prepare a student to fight in real life situations. Sparing against an actively resisting opponent is vital in preparing for a real life situation. Along with other things such as situational awareness, and emotional stress testing.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2017
  15. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    When you see "Gar", it's southern based.
     
  16. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Moving away from Lau Gar, in particular, to the wider point of authenticity in southern Chinese arts in general. The reality is that very little evidence as to the origins and lineages of most southern Chinese arts. Much of the history of arts was oral, oral history is no less valid than documentary history but it is harder to verify. Much of the documentary history was lost or destroyed in political upheaval in the 19th and 20th centuries.

    My personal solution is to let people accept the oral history of their club and agree to differ if it differs from that of mine.
     
  17. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Every Wing Chun Sifu retells the Ng Mui mythology, despite the lack of providence :)

    I generally ask "can they provide what I need?" with any club - be that sports, fitness or combat
     
  18. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    However JY doesn't lie about lineage, it's not disputed that he learned from his Grandfather and there's no reason to suspect that he didn't learn from the people he said he did. Whether what they taught him was the Lau Gar of 3 eyed Lau is anyone's guess. The truth is that most Cantonese systems can not be reliably traced back beyond 200 years, and the Lau Gar history is less problematic than Wing Chun, Bak Mei, Lung Ying, eagle claw and even Hung Gar.
     
  19. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    http://kogenbudo.org/the-importance-of-paper-in-japanese-martial-traditions/

    I think the above essay is what I was trying to communicate


    Theres a difference between retelling oral history, and knowingly lying.

    For example if frank Dux actually was good, would you join his dojo?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 1, 2017
  20. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Jeremy Yau has stayed with the origin story of lau gar for close to 4 decades and no one has disproven his learning from his grand father, or his place in the Chinese community in Birmingham

    he has over the years performed at various birthday and and other celebrations among and alongside Hakka Chinese masters . That says allot about his standing more than proving or disproving lineage issues.

    He has changed lau gar allot, ironically adding new forms and elongating others because people wanted more than the few forms and sparring he originally offered. And his hand and that of his senior student is different from allot of what you see and closer to Hakka arts I know than southern shaolin stuff.

    To be clear Yau set up lau gar kick boxing, his classes in the 70s were all about hard contact sparring conditioning and little else, they called it semi contact but from all accounts the likes of Steve babbs, Neville wray etc all had no issues stepping into the ring and fighting full contact. Fewer and fewer students now do more than semi contact sparring, but it's allot more than most Chinese arts do sparring wise.

    Whilst the origins of the style are still provable the fact is he has produced a large number of students who can fight, semi or full contact, helped set up the kick boxing scene in the UK, and is one hell of a business man which is what upsets allot of people I think.
     

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