What is internal?

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by icefield, Oct 2, 2021.

  1. windwalker

    windwalker Member

    All CMA are internal

    Have a longer post but

    Not sure how the editor works on the site...

    or if there is one..any help or suggestions would be good :)
     
  2. IronMaiden1991

    IronMaiden1991 Active Member

    Depends who you ask.

    I know martial artists within multiple chinese style schools who cannot for the life of them agree on what it means. I know martial artists who claim that internal and external are completely seperate, some who claim they cannot be seperated, and some who claim it is a politically motivated form of snobbery between taoist and buddhist originated martial arts.

    At the end of the day, does it matter?
     
  3. windwalker

    windwalker Member

    It mattes if one is expecting a certain result from training that is said to be based
    on it.

    In China with those I've known its quite different .

    The distinction between the two is used to delineate training methods, practices and usage strategies

    All CMA styles are "internal" coming from a culture that uses this distinction,
    how its expressed, practice methods are quite different...

    At some point, the methodologies combine

    The combining based method can :

    Use internal development to support external attributes normally divided into

    skin, tendon and bones

    Internal attributes

    intention, energy, spirit

    one method uses the inner to support the outer directly
    the other uses the outer as conduit allowing the inner to be expressed directly
     
  4. IronMaiden1991

    IronMaiden1991 Active Member

    I could then respond with the following arguements

    1. If methods do combine, then perhaps trusting in the process of becoming a competent martial artist is more important that breaking down every aspect into 'this is internal, this is external' because a you have said, the two things combine eventually.

    2. Energy, spirit, these are vague terms. I've similarly heard Qi used, another term I am continually finding disagreement on what it actually means.

    3. If the outer is the conduit to express the inner directly, then I'd go back to my inseparability point. It might not have a clear, universal definition, but if you can't have one without the other, as martial artists, why do we need to focus on what is and isn't? If we can't split them, then schools that focus entirely on 'internal/external good, other bad' can't be considered good places or methods to train with. If we look at the definitions, which are often vague, have debate about them etc. Then it spirals into a time sink.

    I say this as a mixed background of internal and external, would be hard and soft arts. A lot of people get too caught up in chasing 'the special,' the old 'internal' hermit living in the mountains who'll show them an effortless way to topple dozens of opponents mutliple times their own size.
     
    Dan Bian likes this.
  5. windwalker

    windwalker Member

    It's a distinction that outlines training methodologies and expected outcomes.

    Does not confer anything special on either path taken, it's a matter of choice.
    Only points out the differences between them..

    What one gains, and uses the training for, a matter of choice...

    1. With out at least a basic understanding of TCM , it wouldn't make much sense as to why or how its said they "combine"
    "iron palm " and "kong jin" extreme examples using the same processes with opposite training methodologies attaining very different results.

    2. Intention, energy, spirit...or Yi, Qi, Shen,,,,what they mean are referred to in a body of knowledge based on TCM...
    Not up for agreement or disagreement

    3, "We" really not about the "we" or others training or practices...only about what one finds useful in their practice.
    At most one can share as "here" offering some explanations based on their practice

    As I am sharing aspects of my practice.

    aside note:

    on this site there doesn't seem be any type of text editor....is there one
     
  6. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    "All same" - Fook Yeung
     
    El Medico likes this.
  7. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    In post #15 I noted-In the late 1800s some of the Hsing I and Pa Kua buddies founded a group which used the "internal" and WuDang monikers.No one knows exactly what they meant-likely another cultural/social/marketing statement but it wasn't about being systems that used ch'i-'cause everybody was supposed to.

    As of yet no one has commented on/replied to post # 35.

    Windwalker,nice to "see" you.

    Intention, energy, spirit...or Yi, Qi, Shen-not sure why these have to relate to medicine rather than general Chinese thought and/or meditative practices.

    Then consider most of the early theoreticians,such as Li,Yi-yu, weren't doctors.
     
  8. windwalker

    windwalker Member

    True, what I outlined pertains to more than just TCM.

    Thought for most people TCM might be a little more documented /accessible in helping explain and understand the terminology used within the culture that internal/external distinctions are from

    My teacher's and my practiced aligns with what was written by

    "汪永泉授楊式太極拳語錄及拳照
    Wang Yongquan Writings on Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan
    Translated by Richard Man,
    Log in to Facebook "

    "內功是神、意、氣的化合。神、意、氣是結合在一起的,神到、意到、氣到。
    練拳主要是煉神、意、氣。
    盤架子是神、意、氣的運行。明了這點,才知道應該如何盤架子。
    神、意、氣運行走虛。
    Neijin (internal gong) is harmonizing Shen, Yi, and Qi (神、意、氣, ‘spirit’, mind intent and Qi). When the Shen, Yi and Qi are harmonized together, when Shen is expressed, so would Yi and Qi.
    The main point of practicing martial art is to refine Shen, Yi and Qi.
    The form is about moving Shen, Yi, and Qi. You have to understand this point, before you can learn how to do the form.
    Shen, Yi and Qi move where it is empty and insubstantial."


    "(十)內勁是神意氣的化合,不是神意氣的集中
    (Ten) Neijin Is Harmonizing Shen Yi Qi, and Not Concentrating Shen Yi Qi
    編者按:汪永泉老師對內勁兒的本質及其和力的區別作了專門講述。這是非常重要的。有些人沒 有弄清楚,誤把力當成勁兒,走入歧途。

    Editor: Teacher Wang Yongquan said that there are fundamental differences between Neijin (內 勁/ internal refined force) and other practices.
    This is a very important point. Some people do not make the distinction clear, and confuse force as Jin, going down the wrong path."


    All CMA is internal...How this is expressed is different..


    The distinction helps with understanding expected outcomes of training....In China with those I practiced with , it was used as distinction helping those practicing understand what they'er working on ...
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2022

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