Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by alister, Dec 1, 2005.
Sorry to tell you, but you have a dead friend then!
And you don't demonstrate qi, rather use fajing.
Take away the word internal here. Skill is skill. that's it. it all come from inside ? hmm Otherwise we really will start getting mystical ..
Mine comes from the moon.. oh fudge. I have no skill at all. Ignore me. Now Ali, he had skillz. "floats like a butterfly, stings like a bee"
float and stings - if that's not the principle of yin and yang in fighting then call me a lemon.
I'm a lemon.
I'm sorry you are getting agitated with all this, honestly, but your frustration proves my point, I think. Let's drop the term "internal" and then we'll all know what we are talking about. My whole point is that the "internal" terminology is something people hide behind and insert to sound mysterious. It stands in the way of understanding and that is precisely why some people use it. It's meaningless! It's lazy too - why not break it down? - so if we mean limb extension, relaxed muscle state, avoidance of incompatible muscle tension, intention, harmonisation of movement with breath, constant rotation, shockwave / fajin etc. etc. we can say so. Then we can have more meaningful discussions and no one can pull the "it's all about qi meridians" dodge, when it evidently is not.
well yes. but call be stupid. but i think SLT tried to do us a favour so we could spend less time talking about this bit being this bit and that bit being that bit.
And more time doing and training the whole thing. Or maybe i really am just super lazy to remember all the bits to talk about.
so he put 'his thing' under an umbrella. So I only wish he had called it umbrella or something.
If it did really start with him which may just be arguable - he may just have (re) popularized it at the time ?. But no let's not argue history of which we are not parcel. It is a waste of time really.
I agree about the hiding behind qi and meridians and the like.
Internal and external should not be 2 kind of styles...
Take western boxing for exemple...
A new student, who never did any boxing, tries and punch, using only his arm. The result is as strong as his arms.
Now when he gets to "understand" through repetition how to use his whole body, where the energy should come from and go to, his boxing is now internal. It's no magic!
Though CMA sometimes uses principles that makes american think about mysticism, it's all "simple" and concrete.
This is crazy and pointless - forget what the word means literally. That is not what this is about.
There will still be the common ground between these arts and the difference in training amongst all arts.
Changing a word. Will not change that. And what some of us will still know about our training that brings it under the umbrella we recognise. And what it means to us. Call it what you like in any sense. It doesn't matter. We may as well get rid of all names and faces while we're at it. Personally though I'm one for freedom.
No matter what.
Those are probably zendogs last words on this (at least I hope so). I'm with Chris and Buddy on this. Balls to it..
I'm off to try and kill zendog but the fudger doesn't want to die. Goddam stubborn mutt
I agree with this one,
It was my first uneducated thought on the meaning of internal and external.
I figured internal = mind, external =body.
internal v. external
This is a link to the best "internal v. external" article i ever read. It's by Tim Cartmell.
A wish to widen perceptions ...
In an attempt to widen the prevailing perception, I think maybe there should be coined a new phrase : Chinese Internal Martial Arts (CIMA), because other internal arts do exist, which strangely enough also owe some influence from India and China.
CIMA appear to be ubiquitous when people talk about the 'internal arts' and they are generally the first to come to mind when discussed in a modern western context. However there are various styles of silat which also classify as an 'internal art' e.g Sabandar, Cikalong, Nampon, Bangau Putih (Shaolin origin) and Gerak Saka to name a few. They exist side by side in the Indonesian MA/silat community with Silat Patkwa (Baguazhang) and Taiji.
We also have our 'external' styles e.g TAKO, Cimande, Perisai-Diri to name a few.
I like Tim Cartmell's ideas. Also like this article.
in simple terms without getting anyone confused internal is relaxed movements generating power with little tension, whipping like movements generated from the waist and whole body power, rather flowing energy
Internal is a huge subject.
Almost all arts have some internal characteristics, but traditionally "internal martial arts" only refers to taiji, bagua, and xingyi. They share similar principles (economy of motion, drilling, round body etc) and were thus categorized as a family. This was done around the second or third generation of bagua players, by Cheng Ting Hua, and later Sun Lu Tang.
So while most arts are somewhat or majorly internal, only tj,xy, and bg are actually in the family of CIMA. :woo:
A good description of some northern Long Fist systems.Which shows why a description of what makes something fall under the "internal" banner varies amongst even practitioners who use the term.Tho' it can be a handy term for some to lump a few systems together under one umbrella,if one is so inclined.
wujibu-you forget Liu Ha Ba Fa, and Ba Chi,which is a "hard" "internal" system.(See Hsu's writings on Ba Chi).And there are others which could make the claim.Sun felt the "big three" had more in common w/each other than w/other systems.
Also,due to my penchant for history,can you direct me to a reference regarding your statement on Cheng?I hadn't heard that before.Thanks.
El_medico: I purposefully left out lhbf and baji (as well as tongbei and pigua) since they were not originally considered internal by Sun.
As for a reference to Cheng, I don't directly have one. I think there may be something on Tim Cartmell's website and I've heard my teacher (Hai Yang, who studied with some of Cheng You Long and Cheng You Xin's disciples in Tienjin) say it many times.
The problem is that when you come down to it, most martial arts draw power in the same way. Drawing power from the pivoting of the spine by using the core muscles of the abdomen and lower back.
As mentioned already Tai Qi Quan, XingYi, and BaGua Zhang are the main "internal martial arts. But when you view it from the method of power generation you can apply the label to most martial arts such as aikido, boxing, WingChun, karate, judo, wrestling, etc.
This is why my sensei always says that at the highest level all martial arts are really the same.
wjb- my error. I thought this -"So while most arts are somewhat or majorly internal, only tj,xy, and bg are actually in the family of CIMA."- was your opinion,not you stating Sun's take.
Interesting what you said in regards to Cheng,sounds as if that's where Sun got the idea.Couldn't find anything on Cartmell's site,but I didn't read everything.
in CMA we know 2 division, Wai jia (external) & Neijia (Internal).
as mentioned before the group of internal are taiji, bagua, & xingyi..
In wai jia it also has internal training, but the result & the training itself is very different to this Nei jia..
so far as i know, nei jia system using a lot of tendon either than muscle in wai jia..
just my 2 cents
I am with panzerhaust on this one.
Martial arts are made up of two kamae(attitude) katachi kamae posture/attitude of the body and kokoro kamae attitude of mind. Training should be to realise that they are symbiotic and must become one.
saying that an art is internal or external makes this impossible.
For me.. it's about the methods employed in getting there not where you arrive at being this or that.
That would be a misunderstanding of what is meant by "internal" in this context .. It doesn't matter a jot if a judoka is ajudged to get to the same place with his fighting methods or an aikidoka, boxer or whatever.
If you don't use CMA methods from the beginning that are internally(mind) driven and infuse into all your training then you're not doing CIMA.
Also the body mechanic issue is a subtle one. Yes using the whole body - everyone does it yes - but it's how ?
On one hand there is sequential production of power that fires like a piston.
Then there is "the battering ram" way driven from the centre.
It's a subtle difference but it does exist.. :hat:
for me maybe body mechanic in internal use all joint in your body when you move or aplly some forms..
FYI, in human body we have 9 joints that connect each other..when you use it wisely you can have a different power than others..
BM in external use a little body movement..
just for my 2 cents
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