Discussion in 'Chinese Martial Arts Articles' started by futsaowingchun, Jan 29, 2009.
If you mean the author of the article(that's me) no,I'm not a member of the IWTA.
Ok thats fine. whats your history as a martial artist i love history and sharing knowlege.
and i agree allot of schools in america seem to jump ahead to the flashy stuff and dont touch on the basics as much therefor the students get ahead of themselves and cant apply it in a real situation.
i feel i can be to keep peoples interest and sense of accomplishment.
'' My history as a martial artists'' if you mean my background in martial arts training you can read it on my website. http://futsaowingchun.info/bio.html and also the history of Fut Sao you can read here. http://futsaowingchun.info/history.html
there are two basics kinds of martial art school one is commerical A.K.A a Mc Dojo or Mc kuen the teacher is mostly about money and uses belts/slashes to keep the student there for a long time. Usesly taeches a lot of material but not much is placed on quality instruction IMHO. the other is more private classes are smaller learning is slower but more attention to quality instructions. the teacher usually does not make his bread and butter teaching so he does not need to promote or move up his students to qickly. This is just a general observation not all school are like this though. My self I teach. I have a small number of students and I expect them to master the basics before I teach them any higher money or length of time training does not matter. Quality of instructions is very high I give my best and expect my students to be the best.
Tai Chi and Wing Chung Sparring
I want to say that I just love the interaction in this room and humbly invite you all to review my website at www.angelsgym.com. Cloudz invited me here and has already posted some of my articles. You guys rock and Im glad to be here. I would like to add to the thoughts here in the context of training to handle an opponent of equal skill, experience but whose skill set is outside of Chinese Kung Fu.
If one has ones Form application down to a science (13 Postures or Startegies) and uses Pushhands and Stickyhands training when applied to the Five Powers, Five Character Secret they are indeed developing some serious skills. The Five powers of follow, link, adhere, stick, never resist and never let go neutralizes opponents who favor distance standup fighting. The Five Character Secret negates any natural advantages an opponent might have.
These skills can be carried into Pankration & Submission Wrestling Scenarios wherein ones offense and defense concerning takedowns are included in these sparring drills. Ground striking drills should also be incorporated. Push & Sticky Hands techniques can be executed on the ground even as additional skills and training should be exercised to transition from such a scenario.
I think that in the 21st Century no style can resist the inclusion of all 4 fighting scenarios (Standup, Clinch, Takedown and Ground Fighting). Fighting Internal Stylists know this approach is good Kung Fu; moreover, a Kung Fu that require the cultivation of modern training regimines with the knowledge of the ancient Masters. All Kung fu must be constantly examined to meet present needs in Martial Combat.
The merger and training of Tai Chi Form and Wing Chun sparring drills seems almost a necessity for Fighters who are inferior to their opponents in age, size, speed, strength and endurance. If I missed something here please correct me and thanks for reading this.... G
If you can sense where your opponent's
- leg is, you can reduce the chance to be kicked and kneed by that leg.
- arm is, you can reduce the chance to be punched and elbowed by that arm.
This concept make CMA different from boxing.
The bridge building is a 2 way street. When you can apply Tinjin on your opponent, your opponent can also apply Tinjin on you. IMO, the moment that you have built a bridge, you should collect your information from your bridge ASAP. You then pass that bridge and destroy it at the same time. This is why I don't like Taiji push hand because the concept of "destroy bridge ASAP" is missing. The same principle should also be applied on the leg bridge building, and it should be done before the arm bridge building.
Awesome perspective regarding the bridge building and destruction. A little questionable about the comparison concerning CMA and Western Boxing. If there is a difference its the methodology to achieve the skill which may be what you are talking about.
To do what you are talking about requires alot of skill and is considered even by CMA standards to be advanced when mastery is the goal. Western Pugilism (Boxing) or rather Western Martial Arts such as Boxing or Kickboxing or Pancrase (Striking and Grappling) train to the same standard regarding the subject you are discussing. Moreover, levels of mastery of that skill differenciates novice, Junior Olympic and Open Amateur Fighters. Professional Western Pugilists are expected to have completely mastered these skills once past the Journeyman Stage of their careers. You may not be aware of this skill-set development outside of Chinese culture but the West has magic too... lol... We managed to keep you here with us didn't we... lol
Anyway I think your response to the guy giving me advice was very helpful even with the comparison. Thanks..
I do understand your aversion to Tai Chi Push Hands because of your bridge-destruction theory, but perhaps this theory is alittle too external. The idea in the exercise is suppose to be making a connection to create a harmony of intent, movement and spirit that causes the neutralization of opposites. But John, destruction is implicite in the application of Tai Chi Ch'uan's internal approach. What is destroyed is disharmony of intent, movement and spirit as the point of engagement is not to beat one's opponent but to have ones opponent beat themselves if they wish to remain engaged in a disharmonious manner. In Tai Chi winning has nothing to do with domination but with surrendering all but the will to survive the encounter without damage.
I think you know this John but you are just playing Devil's Advocate... Stop messin with us... lol
Futsao.... I think we Tai Chi guys should practice Chi Sao to bring us closer to what the ancient masters could do and to also bring those two awesome style linegages to the modern fighting arena's schools of training. We do it at Angel's Gym and find that it is a true weakness that needs to be addressed constantly as the skills are perisable. I think your posts are great and would love to hear more about your training methods and learning experiences concerning the merging of Wing Chun and Tai Chi sparring. We are also practicing Bagua movements during these sparring sessions.... More thoughts please bro..... G
chi sao is fun... really good for building sensitivity... trapping hands is fun too... maybe their both just as applicable to combat in their own way... good to be inside yourself so you know when its time to throw a slap block and maybe try and grab that wrist.... slip and arm under and take them over the knee, you know? not classical wing chun, but gotta love those take downs
it looks like pattycakes
wing chun turn face flat flat like patty cake mamasang:hat:
Is it true that when you do Chi Sao you should agree with your partner what the "training" is to be (what the goals are or what they are working to improve).?
If this is the case, how can this kind of martial arts be applied in the real fight?
Any training is good training. I feel the best benefit of this type of skill is that it heightens reflexes, useful in real life confrontations.
First, I'd like to say that the statement "When one has reached a high level of proficiency in Chi Sao, the practice of simple drills and applications has almost no functionality." is in my option, not true. I can't imagine that any sifu would agree that all previous drills are useless after you're proficient in chi sao. Reverting back to your basic drills can always teach you something and help you refine technique.
Chi Sao is not about sparring. If your goal in chi sao is to hit the other person while avoiding being hit, then you are "playing" chi sao, which can be very bad for your kung fu. Chi Sao should be a co-operative drill, with no definitive winner or loser.
I believe its definitely about energy, learning to accept, recognize, and control the energy given to you by your partner, and developing an answer to that energy. It's definitely dynamic, interesting, and directly applicable to a real fight. Training how to redirect energy and hands to get them out of your way so you can move in for a strike can apply to any situation. Chi Sao is training, not sparring, and if you enter Chi Sao with an intent to "win" then you are robbing yourself, and your partner, of good chi sao training. Just sayin.
Do you feel that those two statements are contradictory? Is Chi Sao equivalent to close quarter fighting or not?
Well said sir. So you feel that training to blink and throw your hands down to your waist when someone throws a punch at you is good training?
I am knew but I always saw chi sao as a training exercise to get rid of the "thinking" action. It was a way to just go with the flow.
Thats just my point of view.
I love running through tai chi guys. They may have root, but so should any good martial artist. Ving Tsun is direct and doesn't play around with the rolling or flowing bs. You can't borrow something unless it is given.
Chi Sau's "purpose" is multi layered??? but also it should form part of a broader and more varied practice.
Some examples given below.
Chi Sau helps you to:
1) understand where your "gaps" are and when they appear to an opponent,
2) sense/"listen" to your opponent
3) understand where you hold tension and when you tense;
4) finding your centre and that of your opponent
5) "work" very close up
6) try out and apply your moves in a "safe and controlled" situation
7) move beyond the external senses whilst working with a partner
8) learn to relax when confronted by an opponent close quarters
9) learn subliminally through play (like a child) and body learning
10) engage in 2 person "energy work"
these are just some examples - there are more!
Chi Sau has it's limitations of course (it certainly doesn't teach you every principle but then surely you wouldn't expect it to) however it is also limited further by those playing Chi Sau. As you develop with it you will find the space in which you play expanding.
I know this is an old thread now but just searching around as I am new here.
I really like Chi Sau and try to do some every training session, only problem is that everyone has a different way of doing it and you only do it as you are taught so there are always differences in styles or perceptions of it.
I see many benifits to doing it and when you become more advanced in it you are bascially close quarter sparing as you have punches, locks, throws, kicks etc all thrown in.
Some would believe that this is the ultimate goal in training, totally free flowing attacks with defence / counters.
Yes this is done lightly with no real force to cause harm but throw some GY or mass attacks in afterwards and you instantly see the ' street ' benefit of practicing this.
The way I look at chi sau is that it trains two things.
1 "listening" with the hands and body, learning to read your opponents balance and movement through touch.
2 training specific technique in a structured way.
The greater the emphasis on listening the less structured the practice, the harder it is to learn technique, but closer to a real world application it becomes.
The more structured the technique the easier it is to learn but the further away it moves from a real world application.
Both forms of practice also suffer from the tendency to play at "winning the game" rather than concentrating on pulling the trigger to strike or grapple.
The way I attempt to get over this last problem is to put on some protective gear and practice hitting my partner hard off the bridge, while he does the same to me. A good head guard is necessary if you are throwing elbows with speed and good technique.Body armor is not necessary, but spending your week permanently bruised gets old in time.
The Wing Chun practitioner develops reflexes within the searching of unsecured defenses through use of sensitivity. Training through Chi Sao with a training partner, one practices the trapping of hands. When an opponent is "trapped", he or she becomes immobile.
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