What is Chi and how to develope it

Well guys it's been fun but I think we've came to a stalemate.

I will stick to my western values. It has built the greatest martial forces in history and to me it's more about the winning the fight than feeling the 'qi'.

The Bear.

 

So what do you mean by "greatest martial forces". I hope youre not talking about guns n stuff like that..

 

I took some art lessons a while back and something that he said to me stuck. He said "Success in your art is not determined by the skill with which you hold your pen, rather it is a skill of SEEING. He told me "don't draw the lines, draw the light". For me it produced measurable results, what was my standard of measure you ask? Why I liked my drawing better!

The Chinese say that the Yi(mind) leads the Chi(energy) and the Chi leads the Li(body). The way to move the Chi is with the mind, using your imagination is quite possibly your greatest tool.

A few posts back the conclusion was come to that Chi "theory" is looking at the same exact natural phenomena that physics is looking at (the same reality). Why is it so hard to imagine that the tools of investigation of physics don't work with an investigation into Chi? It is not like the Chinese would demand that if you can't explain the world of physics in terms of Chi theory and say "well I just don't believe that the physical world exist if you can't explain it in my terms"! That would be just plain silly.

Or would it?
You talked about the fact that Quantum physics is now an accepted theory. Why is it that in quantum theory you can say "If you know a particles velocity exactly than it ceases to be a particle and IS IN FACT A WAVE (ENERGY). When you measure its mass exactly it ceases to be a wave and IS IN FACT A PARTICLE (MATTER). So we can say that on a fundamental level modern science sees exactly what it wants to see based on the goal of the experiment. Indeed the IMAGINATON of the observer is precisely what drives the results. Is this not true?

 

Nope I mean victory on the battlefield.

 

Actualy I think Genkhis Khan's Empire and the Ottoman Empire captured the most land mass, which would mean eastern, not western. But hey I may be totaly wrong.

 

No the British empire was larger in landmass. Bit of a cheat though Canada and Australia were kinda empty for the most part.

 

Oh well, my future 'Zilla Billa Chi Qi Empire' will do even better.

 

Zilla,
I'll let Mr. Bush know.

The Bear.

 

Not at all actually, knowing the velocity does not turn a particle into a wave and knowing the mass does not turn a wave into a particle, its quite a bit more complex than that. Wave particle duality means that at times a wave can act as a particle, or a particle can act as a wave, and have the properties of one another. The imagination of the observer has nothing to do with it, the fact of the observer is what changes the results.

 

I guess I don't understand. Can you explain this statment further, It seems a bit murky for the scientific mind?

 

This post is a bet better but...

Lets say we use a tai to perform his techniques in the manner in which you suggest. We measure it. Lets for arguements sake say that the results are positive, everytime he uses his chi he pushes harder. Have we proved the existance of chi? No we haven't...

There are several confounding variable here. I'll just address one for simplicities sake.

The tai will use mental imagery to use his 'chi'. However we know that similar mental imagery techniques have been proven effective in enhancing physical performance - visualisation has been used successfully by top athletes like from Arnold Swesenager (how do you spell that) to Tiger Woods for over 30 years.

So when it comes to analysing the results you wont be sure if you've measured the effects of chi or visualisation. A basic operational error, so yes, apples and pears again.

Do you understand now what I mean when I talk about operational problems? The measurement is useless without it.

 

OKay, Ill give it a try. The observer can imagine whatever they want to imagine while looking at the results, but the change in the system will be the same no matter who the observer is, or what they imagine. It is not the observers thoughts that matter, or their imagination, or anything else, its simmply the fact that they are there.

 

Its possible with very advanced modelling to calculate how much force should be produced by a specific movement, I'd imagine that if chi exists the force produced should be greater, otherwise it would be safe to say that chi is only visualisation.

 

To assume that the force produced should be greater is obviously an error. Visualisation and qi gong both use mental imagery to enhance physical performance. What you would really be measuring is which method of mental imaging enhances performance better. Not the existance or non-existance of chi.

We would still be no closer to understanding whether chi was or wasn't involved. The problem isn't with the measurement itself, but what operational process you use before you start measuring. What you have done here is assume the apple is a pear - Again!

Now if you could operationalise this process in a scientifically valid way you would be very rich and very famous - nobody has done it yet!

 

Wait a second, so saying that you calculate the force that a movement should produce, and then see if chi has actually done something on top of that doesn't make it clear whether or not chi was involved? Surely if the force produced is that which the movement should produce, then you're simply using visualisation for better technique, whereas if you're gaining force somewhere then there's something else going on.

And if I hear the word operationalise one more time then I'm going to scream. I got enough of that in my physics course. Besides which there is no real need to define the variables quantitively, qualitive measurement would work just as well assuming you could use an objective viewer.

 

Good point. Pehaps I can devise an experiment to isolate the effects of chi.

Step One: Attach a wrecking ball, weighing approximately 200 pounds, to a crane. Swing the ball towards a brick wall. Use a pressure gauge to measure the force, and videotape the resulting impact on the wall, for documentary purposes.

See picture:


Step Two: Attach a martial artist of approximately 200 pounds, practicing Qi Gong, to the crane. Repeat above procedures. Compare measured results.

See picture:


Evaluate: did the chi of the martial artist alter the force of impact?

Now, will you guys PLEASE stop arguing ??!?!

 

Actually, I love that experiment. Now if I could just get some chi practitioners to volunteer.

 

All is Vibration

 

Gyaku,
I don't agree we are talking apples and pears. Even if you can't measure chi quantatively you could measure it qualitatively. But it doesn't matter, if 'qi' makes you feel more powerful, enjoy. It is the same delusion the god following masses have used to hold back the fear.


Oh and a wee anti-jargon quote for you:

"The problem with OPERATIONALIZE is not just that it's ugly, but that it is so sprawling a word-like an ill-planned building with too many additions-that it suggests something complicated, demanding, and obscure. It tries to awe the reader with its sheer unruliness, as if it contains so many ideas that it might be dangerous to unleash them all. Yet the closer you look, the more likely the thing is to mean nothing more than "do." It's a Texas-size word that, as Texan Lyndon B. Johnson once said of some Lone Star poseur, turns out to be "all hat and no cattle.""
Bad Words for Good by Tony Proscio, 2001.

The Bear

 

To Gyaku, sorry but he has only cited part of the whole story for his own convenience making the blind believe that being blind is better than no blind, kind of commentary that reminds me the Matrix movie.


To all non believers that have been basically trolling in this thread:

Who do you think you are arrogant Westerners teaching us the Chinese about "qi", which was discovered by Taoists thousands of years ago while you Europeans were living naked in dark caves hunting deer with stones and scared of lighting?

Just shut up and learn. And if you don't like to hear stuff about Qi's existence and validity go elsewhere. This section of the forum is only for Taoist/Buddhist serious devotees not for imbeciles.


感謝