What is Chi and how to develope it

I seem to remember some years ago that a study was done on some black belt martial artists with regards to the ability to affect the outcome of an event in the past.

I cant remember much about it but I believe a random event generator was used and the results over a period of time were recorded and but not revealed. The group of martial artists were then told to focus on the result in an attempt to affect it. When the results were shown there was a significant difference between the produced result and the result that should have been produced by the normal working of the event generator.

Has anyone else heard of, or can throw more light on this test and what has happened since? I will try and find some more info on it.

There is also the Bunjikan godan test - Not scientifict but uses the ability to sense the intent to kill through means other thant the 5 senses.

http://members.ams.chello.nl/ch.kamstra/godan.html

 

Capt Ann,
I appreciate your efforts in this to keep things calm. I keep hearing the people that have education in science telling us to leave science out of it because we are apparently not qualified to speak of it. This is ridiculous, just because LBR seems to be ignorant of Chi is no reason for us to tell him to stifle himself. If our information concerning Quantum Physics is wrong (and he in fact does have some understanding in this) then by all means he should enlighten us. Telling us we don't understand and should remain silent about it then using science to defend his position is unbelievably insulting. There are a great many people here on the forum with the capacity to understand Chi as well as science. LBR’s dismissal of these peoples ideas smacks of so many scientists in the past who have kicked and screamed and cried all the way home from having the basket holding all of their intellectual eggs upturned.

 

Not what I was looking for but covers a similar experiment - also prodeces references to other research.

http://www.fmbr.org/abstracts/absolute.htm

 

Science once said the world could not possibly be round. In the 60's they promised us we'd all be holidaying on the moon, last decade they pharmaceutical companies used a drug that caused phalidomide children...science pretty much sucks. Trying to rationalise and explain everything in solid terms, with evidence is great...in theory, in reality it just leads to the pigeon-holing of everything.

I believe in chi/ki, whether or not science believes it, and i also believe that everything is made of energy (positive and negative) and void (nothingness) even us humans, and that it can be used to our benifit.

Science is just another language as is maths, used to explain an idea or a concept, and make it tangable...arts transcend linguistic barriers, and become a more direct form for communication, if a little more abstract/remote. And after all chi/ki is usually found in martail Arts. Not martial sciences.

 

Haven't read all posts so please forgive me, but I must put in a 'plug' for the Indian subcontinent where this all began. Along with Buddhism, concepts of Chi and Ki spread from India to China and Japan, Korea etc. Yes, there were some glimmerings in Taoism, Shinto etc but most of the understanding of Chi came from Yoga and its 'life energy/breath power caled 'Prana'. I have read extensively around Chi and Ki as expressed in China and Japan and have found nothing that was not expressed many hundreds of years before in Indian texts from the Vedas onwards. Have a look at the martial arts schools in Kerala, e.g. Kalari, and you'll find they cover much of Aikido, pressure point fighting, striking and throwing techniques as well as extremely sophisticated weapons training. If you have a problem believing in Ki as an awareness of and harmony with life force, a recent TV prog would convince you - a Kalari grading involved a blindfolded girl (with sand in her eyes to add to the difficulty). She was spun around and then had to find several men, each holding a water melon, some standing, some lying down etc. with the melon clutched to the chest. She held a machette and had to find each man and split the melon without injuring the man. Inch perfect, blindfolded. Awesome to watch and, excluding cheating, showing something beyond all known science.

 

Interesting thread.

Those who argue against Qi, have many conflictions. I also am noting as i write this that i have to back every stament since it will probably be analyzed to pieces. Those arguing against Qi are essentially saying, the human body is limited and Qi is just a way of improving its function and the same results can be obtainedby other activites. Well simple and short, no. Qi deals with many levels. You have failed to address the human mind in this argument. Scientifically the human body is limited. However their are many phenomonal capabilities it can do. The body cannot work at all without the mind however. This is a huge flaw in the logical veiw. The human mind is not much understood despite all the information on it. The mind is what controls the body. Almost all Qi exercises deal with the mind. When speaking this argument with the human brain involved alot of the Qi arguments become invalid. Western science although often has a definition for Qi. Its been called bio-energy and maybe thats enough for some, do some searches on google. Things get complex when looking from the scientific veiw dealing with a human as a whole. For example when subjects are under hypnosis the hypnotist can freeze the bones so none of their body will move unless incredible force to break the joint or bone is applied. This is often demonstrated with the two chairs and the person laying between them, and another person walking on their abs and legs. The whole time they remain straight as a board. Their are also methods of self hypnosis. Anyway i doubt you can force you body to do that through common exercise huh? Your heartbeat, circulation, blood cell counts, plasma levels, hemoglobin all of it relies on the brain for regulation. Muscle memory is an essential fighting tool, that helps you act almost automatically, yet to acheive its full effects mental conditioning is needed. The basic fact is how can you argue that your body is capable of only a certain limit, when you define that limit through physical exercise that does not deal with the mind, or how it deals with energy? Proof of Qi. Well thats a hard one. Depends on your understanding or definition of Qi. If youve ever experienced and trained real Qi gong, and meditation for 1 year, daily and realistically, many sensations will be felt, and much change can be reconized. Tai chi is all good and well, but alot of the time the internal side is not really explored. Go under a reconized sensei and train Chi kung, or Qi gong, for 6 months to a year, then come argue. Traditionally Qi is basically your life force its is the regulation and energy of your body. Trying to argue it in the way you have is like trying to argue the human thinking and thought process. Not everything can be defined as a constant in science. The brain is a good example, it has so many random factors that is making each of us is indepentent and think for "ourselves." You cannot scientifically define the exact atomical structure of the brain, every brain develops differently. Qi is like this. It is not a constant that can be defined as a set of chemical processes. It is the method of training your mind to truly learn your body and its resources, to their true value. No other widely known method can accomplish this. Qi has been widely overhyped and that has raised the skeptisims, because of all the scams and hyping. I dont know about empty force, but Qi is the method i use to learn myself, and my connection with the enviroment.

As far as the little debate on the eastern knowledge vs western knowledge, so much more of western science is derived from eastern science. For example the use of electricity to accelrate healing was prompted from the concept of using the bioenrgy in Qi to accelerate healing. The circular motion and movement patterns in easern arts are also consistant with the human anatomy. The mercury thing is disputable, western sciences makes mistakes much greater than this every day. Look at the all the problems arising from what we supposedly knew, from our precious science, including atmospheric pollution, over extraction of minerals, depletion of oil supplies, etc. I don't know who started the mercury thing but remember that anyone can say anything and an entire riot will follow them to death. The eastern knowledges are very old and have had time to go through the test, and fail processes, while our sciences have not had the same treatements. I think if you actively tried Qi you could beneift alot from it. Asking someone to prove it is a analgous statement. Few know howto use it to the point to prove it physically to the senses of another person. Internal arts cannot be logically nailed down, you must go at it differently than the external arts, for a sensei can show and correct external artforms, however it is you who control your internal workings and only you can control what you choose to let your mind veiw. Im going to say now if you close the door on qi you probably wont be able to use it. Just another note, The core system of atoms and particals is being quesitoned alot in science by string theory which fills many holes in the atomic structure, but still needs a little more "filling out".

By arguing science against Qi you are arguing from the pov of science. Keep in mind all the math and science is just one way humans have created to label and describe the world around them. In a puzzle i may be able to put several pieces in the same spot but only a few and sometimes only one fits, keep in mind we are still tryiing to fit the pieces in the right places.

My main point is you cant argue only the body, you must argue the mind as well. Any of you who dont think Qi exists go upto one of those monks and hit em in the face, see what they do.

EDIT: just read the rest of the posts. The posts on this part of the thread [other than mine] are wise if anything listen to solely these.

 

And people can lift up cars in a panic, your brain imposes safeguards over the muscles of your body because otherwise the muscles are quite capable of tearing your own body to pieces. In certain states such as a deep panic, or deep hypnosis, these conscious safeguards no longer apply. Epileptic fits have a similar affect, as do some forms of insanity.

If qi has a physical effect, then it can be tested and proven. If it doesn't, then it can't, but it becomes a philosophy rather than an actual system anyway.

 

Hey Bunny,

Read some of this article, it gives a partial explanation of why 'Qi' works and how, etc.. I think you may find it interesting.. However though its only a partial explanation, I dont think one can fully describe 'Qi', only expirience it.

http://www.yiquan.org.uk/art-zz.html

 

All that article describes is a rather overblown visualisation method which creates good biomechanics. If that's all chi is, then fine, but people have been saying its a lot more than just a way of simplifying good biomechanics.

 

Actually I was referring to the 'postural' muscles bit.. I don’t see how you could have read it though, I only posted it a few minutes ago.. The visualizations are just training methods of that specific teacher.

 

Firstly I read particularly fast, sorry about that. As to the postural muscles bit, I don't see what you're talking about. The writer said specifically that referring to both postural and phasic muscles was a simplification, they are in fact the same muscles, just applied in slightly different manners. Phasic describing when they are working pretty much just as muscular strength, while postural is reinforcing the natural structure of the human body.

 

What I'm trying to get at, is that in the authors example 'Qi' is what allows coordinated control of both muscle groups , which in turn generates more power.

I just wanted to give you an exmple of working 'Qi', as per my post before last.

 

Ahh, okay, of course. I call that a central nervous system.

 

True. Working with your Qi and Intent (Yi), trains the nervous system, resulting in greater control, which offers IMA practitioners the ability to coordinate small/subtle movements of legs, spine and arms, resulting in what is called 'Fa Jing', or different ways of emitting/transferring energy. Training the nervous system also allows greater control of mental states that would otherwise interfere with focus and intention, as well as increasing reaction, speed, balance, perception, and anything else connected to the nervous system, which is everything that we know of.

Personally I do not know any other way to consciously and specifically target the nervous system for training other than using the Qi/Yi connection. All sports and physical activity train the nervous system to some extent, but Qi/Yi methods isolate and work this very specifically and very deeply.

I know you did not ask about this stuff, but I figured I would throw it in anyway. Keep in mind though that this is a very brief explanation and the subject is much broader and more complex than this.

 

Professional coaches in just about any sport will contentrate on single muscle groups, or occasionally even single muscles at a time. They will work through every single aspect of a movement, breaking it down as completely as any internal martial artist, and improving every aspect, from the angle of the knee, to when you push with the calf. Of course, these are the truly high-level coaches, but the point still stands. This is pretty much what I've been saying I believe chi/qi/ki to be all along.

 

I see how that could be very useful for improving performance in most sports. However, IMA’s don’t only work with muscles but with all tissues within the body, glands, viscera, fascia, etc. Furthermore, I don’t think that the methods employed by even the highest skilled coaches would come close to being as effective as methods developed by Taoists, mainly because of over 3,000 years more research, also I have never seen any professional athlete generate as much power or speed as high level IMA’ists. I think the reason for this could be that these Pro Sport people only concentrate on very specific muscle groups etc. Whereas IMA concentrate on all the body’s systems. I also don’t think that the Pro Sports people would have the correct mindset or perseverance to come across such subtle techniques that IMA’s use, but that’s just my opinion.

In any case, I understand that you agree that from what you have mentioned –

- that performance can be increased by training the nervous systems connection with the muscles. But I don’t see why you find it so absurd, when you hear that people cannot put in to words the things they have experienced and that they know there is something more, so to speak. IMA train the connection of the nervous system to all the body’s tissues and beyond. The central nervous system is the link that connects our consciousness to our external and internal environment. Is it so strange that if you improve these connections you start coming across things that Science has no concept about. Specifically when you consider that Taoist Internal Arts are extremely more advanced in this are than Science.

 

And the internal can still be there when someone is older or if they're small

 

When someone can conclusively demonstrate to me that internal arts give advantages that hard, expert training doesn't, then I'll believe there's something more to it. So far no one has.

 

What sort of demo do you want?

 

Anything that proves conclusively that use of qi has effects beyond those of careful scientific conditioning. It would have to involve either me personally as a subject/victim, or someone I intrinsically trust, or be some sort of footage which can be proven to be genuine (a very difficult task). It would also have to have some form of effect that science cannot account for or explain.