Well IMHO here goes. First to be a GM in my eyes and speaking for no one else should be teaching for 20-30 years so that right off knocks out all the 30 year old GM's. Ans some of the 40 year olds too! Second you must have trained a few people to master level, which IMHO takes 15-20 years to reach master level. Third there is no cumulative effect of black belts in multiple styles. i.e. if you get a 1stBB in Karate a 1stBB in Judo a 1stBB in Akido a 1stBB in Hapkido that doesnt make you a GM, your still at a 1st dahn level just is several styles. Example If a get a BA in Art and BS in Engr. BS in GEO a BA English I cant add them up and say I have a PHD in anything... Just my thinking on this, please let me know how you size things up KW
The term grandmaster is a western in invention. You either master something, or you don't. I would rather see the term 'master' being replaced by either 'teacher' or 'instructor'.
Wasn't Kuk Sa Nym quite young when he was awarded that title? If Grandmaster is an American invention, does Kuk Sa Nym not imply grandmaster, since certianly, only in his early 20s, he hadn't trained anyone to master level yet?
Kuk Sa Nym literally means "National Teacher." It's not tied into master at all. As I understand it both Suh, In Hyuk and Seo, In Sun have this title as it's awarded by the Korean government (though I do not know how old they were when given the title).
Well then, let's at least define the western invention. I used to be under the impression (from Marc Tedeschi's book I think), that a grandmaster was 9th Dan. Just the other day I was reading something (I don't recall what-- I skim too many things) that said grandmaster is 7th Dan. I think Tedeschi also mentioned that some people consider you a grandmaster when you have trained your first student to master level. What is the western definition? Thanks! And, with regards to teacher and instructor-- isn't instructor already taken? I thought 3rd Dan was "Instructor" and 4th Dan "Master"... And-- can anyone tell us what the actual Korean names are for each Dan, as well as the correct title to address said rank? (In Hangul if possible). If there are differences between federations that you know of, that would be welcome too.
Our Master instructor (who teaches HKD and TKD), just became "grandmaster" last year when he reached 8th Dan, or so I understand.
Sa bum Nim seems to be popular, but seems to refer to master or head coach in a sporting venue. Kwan Jang Nim(K) Kan Cho Nin(jp) refers to building owner or master of the house/bldg/school , and in the context of "school of thought" or a "school of a way of training (do)" i guess it could be Master i.e. school master maybe do ju nim like jhj jyo kyo nim or boo kyo sa nim = asst instructor kyo sa nim (k) kyoshi (jp) = teacher/inst boo sa bum nim = asst head coach?? some associations connect these to rank, but I don't think thats always the case
In the west you have people with 1st dan already teaching. Aren't they instructors. A 3rd dan and a 9th dan both teach, so they are both instructing. I.E. instructors. In Korean I refer to my 9th dan teacher as sabumnim (사범님) just as I refer to other teachers as sabumnim. You can choose to call your teacher, the one which whom you have a personal teacher-student relationship, as sabunim (사부님). Which kind of symbols a father-son relationship. Kwanjangnim (관장님), just as CHoiYoungWoo said, means nothing more than 'building master' i.e. the one who owns the gym. But can also be the kwan-leader.
Well I believe once a master reaches the ranks of 8th dan as others said, deserves the title. Once he or she has spent the majority of their life pursuing and teaching martial arts that they should be allowed that title.
We started with instructors Granted the right/given permission to teach an art. We then moved on to ranks 1st degree,2nd Degree and 3rd Degree Instructors. (Many left and taught on their own as first degrees). Then We made the Term Master. (although Mastery was supposed to take a life time) Now we have Grand Masters,people who have Mastered the Art and then put in more time. (although the Majority of older Masters to Grand Masters who have time rarely do more than sit in an office) Why stop at grand Master,I see the Term Great Grand Master in use by some,so why should we not have them ? Luckily they Gave Choi the rank of 10th Degree founder and most hold that those who follow should not surpass the founder (no one was supposed to equal his rank either but they do) But Hey lets just bump Choi up with a Postumous title and rank and then we can add more belts and titles to go along with them,lol. (Great Grand Master Choi 15th Degree,has a ring to it) Hey maybe Great Great Grand Master give the young 18 year old 5th degree masters something to shoot for? Maybe just Instructors,Teachers and then for the old timers Professor. (Professor will be bestowed on an Instructor/Teacher who has stayed in business with hands on teaching for over 40 years) Titles and Ranks were just a one upmanship to seem more important than the guy down the road and sell what you teach to those to lazy to try the various schools out. The titles mean nothing. Is the person able to teach? Are they able to inspire? Do they ,or are they,able to grow their schools or organizations?
Choi definatly deserved the term. Without him, there would be no Hapkido. Here's another thing about the term "Grand Master" It is usually given to older teachers. The ones who spent most of their lives teaching, until they cannot physically provide the teaching anymore. So they are given the rank of Grand Master, which is almost honorary. That's why it is given. To honor the old masters that taught the art or arts that they truly love.
What is a grand master? If your grandmother is your parents' mother and your grandfather is your parents' father, surely your grand master is your parents' hapkido teacher.
Sa Bum Nim was the head teacher of a school or the head of a group of schools. Kyo Sa Nim were the instructors under the head Instructor. Today if a Black Belt teaches a Class they want to be Called Sa Bum Nim. There are websites that list every black belt 1st to 6th degree as Sa Bum Nim,lol. Titles and ranks are associated in some schools but this was not the use 20-30 years ago,titles were just that titles not rank. The mid 80s rank and titles became the important driving force,I wonder if that was due to the increase in popularity started in the late 70s and the competiton for the money by 5th and 6th year practioners?? (this was also the time that 3-4 year olds started training and we started to see 4-5 year old Black Belts and 9-10 year old 3rd and 4th degrees,lol)
What would all the 6th,7th,8th and 9th degree students of Choi be called if in the early and mid eighties he,Choi,did not go out and bestow/Give Rank to these men? What were the Hapkido Instructors /Masters called before they all got the bump up prior to Choi's death? What were the TKD Instructors/masters called prior to the mid 80s? I do not recall these Masters wanting to be called anything,many just wanted and were called SIR. (some were called Sensei) The early to mid 80s saw the use of titles and ranks. Prior to that we stood in lines in rank order,the Instructor would have us bow to the front,then the instructor turned and we bowed to them ,then the class began,if we had questions we called them SIR. We never bowed to them and called them by title or said respects/honors to Sa Bum Nim,or respects/honors to Cho Sa Nim. Prior to the mid 80s I had trained in TKD and Hapkido under 4 instructors and this was the way with all of them,then came a shift and titles became important. This is the way I remember those times anyway.
Well here's my five pence worth. It seems to me that the need for tiltles above and beyond that of Grandmaster and the further proliferation of 10th dans is needed by persons of perhaps questionable pedigrees in the MA world. This trend would seem to be more and more prevalent in the States and unfortunately is starting to creep into the UK now. The need to be one better than you. To me it seems vain. (10th Dan!?!?!?!? I ask you, who is so good at their art that they have achieved God status!?!?) Almost weekly now you will see some new art spring up and the person that is running the show is 10th Dan Great Grand Master and has studied MA for god knows how many years, the last 5 in Korea/China/Japan etc etc. When you look at the site you expect to see some little old man of about 90 passing on the wisdom of his years. What do you get? Some jumped up, rip off merchant that is just about old enough to go into a pub on his own!!! Nuff said about that! I'm not saying it's all and everyone, there are some out there who are genuine. It is just that there is the opportunity to be able to take a lot of money from Joe Public using MA as a tool to prise open the wallets of the unwarey or naive and to state you are 10th Dan makes JP overawed and seemingly incapable of spotting the blantly obvious.... "Oh, but he's a 10th Dan at 30. Must be good!" (Oh no, McDojo Syndrome again!:bang: ). I can only put the demise of the status of Dan grades down to the academy style dojangs that are starting to pop up. Get 'em in and turn 'em out. That method of teaching, earning as much money in as short a time, is taking away the true meaning and value of the achievement. Hence there would appear to be the need for higher and higher status. But this is all unneccessary as the structures and rules are there, people just need to have patience. (And before you all shout, I am not saying all academies are bad) IMHO. A Grand Master has reached 8th Dan, is a person that has put in years of work for his art. Has had more than a positive effect on promoting that art. Has achieved his rank through dedication, study and teaching. Is NOT younger that 40. No I'll rephrase that, cannot be younger that 40, perhaps even 50. (Takes up the art at say 18 and studies hard. Dan grade every 3 - 5 years, that would make that person 4th, 5th or 6th at the most by the time they reach the magic 40). 10th dan status. Lets leave that to the governing bodies to award postumously to the founder of the art.
Magazines of the 70's 80's Titles and such If you ever get a chance to look through some old MA mags from the 70,80's you will notice all the Americans are Black Belts and all the Asians are Masters. Then there was a big split and the Asian Masters went one way and all the Americans BB's went another. The split was very clear if you were alive then. Now its all just different MA orgs trying to be on top. And now the new GM title is Soke or Shihan -sorry dont know Japanese titles where they are founders of an entire system slash style? Whats up with that? I dont get it. KW
Shihan in Japanese is equivalent to Sabum in Korean. The two terms are written with the same two Chinese characters.
What happened to the Japanese senseis?? Did they all die? I am just waiting for the first white guys to call themselves kuksanim.
I know a "Kaicho" thats bad enough, his wife is a "shihan" neither one acts like the Japenese Shihan that i met in Aikido.
