What does TKD have that Hapkido doesn't?

Discussion in 'Hapkido' started by BSR, Aug 7, 2003.

  1. BSR

    BSR Valued Member

    Having studied both, it seems to me that, in Hapkido, you're getting just about everything that is offered in TKD (lots of kicks, punches, blocks, etc) and a whole lot more.

    Now I only reached a yellow belt in TKD before quitting, and I'm currently only an orange belt in Hapkido, so obviously I'm not an expert in either art. But I wonder what would cause one to choose TKD over HKD if they had an equal opportunity to study both?

    Let me put it another way, what, in TKD, would cause a Hapkidoist to want to train in it as well?

    I certainly don't intend this to be a bashing thread against TKD. I'm simply curious as to what the differences might be. Maybe I'm oversimplifying what TKD has to offer.
     
  2. waya

    waya Valued Member

    In my personal opinion nothing. But some TKD schools may have something unique to them that is worth studying.
     
  3. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    For me, my introduction to Hapkido came from my TKD instructor. We gradually moved from using some Hapkido in our class to incorporating a lot, including ranking through ICHF.

    As for choosing TKD over Hapkido the most common reasons in my opinion are:
    (1) There are a lot more TKD schools around than Hapkido ones and easier to find a TKD instructor than a Hapkido one.

    (2) Quality of instructor - my TKD instructor is kind of martial artist I want to be, regardless of what he teaches... luckily he teaches TKD and Hapkido. I chose this style because of the instructor, not the style.

    (3) As for stylistic differences, I really don't think it matters. I like the joint locks and strikes of Hapkido but I like the powerful kicks of TKD. I also like the poomsae of TKD. Hapkido adds nice circular movements and TKD adds good linear ones. In my opinion, I like training in both styles and using both.
     
  4. John_IHF

    John_IHF New Member

    From what I am learning how in my Hapkido school, we don't strike not with kicks or Punches. We learn how to kick ofcourse but we learn to kick to strengthen our defense. If we know what kick is comming at you by examining the body we can learn to defend against it. Like if you you have your right foot forward and ofcourse your left foot back and we are in an open stance to kick you will either have to use your left foot or you will step and do a steping/juming temple or step pivit and turn with your waist and do a spining heel kick with your right foot. Basic Stuff like that. I'm not intirely sure that Hapkido does have Taekwando kicks in them but I was told that Choi Young Sool learned from a friend of his about Taekyong Kicks before he went to Japan and Learned Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu from Takeda Sokaku (Choi was a Servant but Takeda decided he would teach Choi Aikijujutsu while he was there after a couple of years serving him) In total Choi stayed under Takeda for 30 years or so. I'm not really sure if Choi Learned the kicks from Taekwando.
     
  5. Kwan Jang

    Kwan Jang Valued Member

    -If you are interested in the history of Hapkido, Dr. Scott Shaw is an excellent martial arts historian with a lot of work available on the net. He bypasses the politics and creative history well, and though he is a 7th dan in hapkido, he tells the story warts and all. Choi basically taught aiki-jujitsu, the next generation of instructors under him incorperated the more trad. Korean flavor to the art by incorperating things from tae kyon and the hwarang. Choi accepted this as part of the art, but never taught this himself. IMO, TKD offers a lot that is not traditionally found in hapkido. It is up to the individual if these are things that they want for their own training. Traditionally, hapkido has no forms of it's own (though some instructors have created some for their students or adoped them from TKD. Hapkido trad. has no sparring. (When I say traditionally; many instructors have incorperated these elements into the training). The Korean gov't has tried to make TKD more of a sport and Hapkido more of the combat art/system and restrict it's availability in many cases. I have reached master level in both systems and find that they do compliment each other well. In truth though, since going more MMA, I rarely teach hapkido anymore, except to my black belts who really want to learn it. I find that it's very dangerous to do many of the techniques under adrenal stress w/o risk of serious injury and if it's not in muscle memory under adrenaline, there is too good a chance of a student not being able to perform in high stress combat conditions.
     
  6. SoKKlab

    SoKKlab The Cwtch of Death!

    I know that its taking this thread slightly off topic, but Kwan could you give some more information/ details about what you are alluding to with the above point(s)?

    I understand what you are saying, but am very interested in hearing alot more about this particular POV and how you came to those conclusions?

    What made you take the decision not to teach Hapkido with regards to the Adrenal stress/ muscle memory issues? was it general research or your own experiences?

    Also, can you give any examples of specific techniques that would illustrate your points?
     
  7. BSR

    BSR Valued Member

    Yes, I'd be curious to hear that as well.

    In almost any fighting situation there is going to be a rush of adrenaline for both parties.

    If adrenaline cancels out muscle memory, then that would seemingly render most martial arts ineffective in a real combat situation. :confused:
     
  8. SoKKlab

    SoKKlab The Cwtch of Death!

    Yep, the psychological/ physiological response aspects of any confrontation are the thing, not the techniques or the theories behind them.
     
  9. waya

    waya Valued Member

    I agree, I'd like to hear them as well... I've never experienced these problems with the techniques myself.
     
  10. John_IHF

    John_IHF New Member

    ok well, You could activate certain things ( as in internal organ malfunctions or knock outs etc.. ) to happen because of the pressure point aplications but if you know how to control those types of things then you should have a problem teaching hapkido. The Adreno Glands usually pump under pressure and anger they don't just because you are doing hapkido. You don't need to be in A High adrenolin rush to be able to perform Hapkido. If anything you want to be as calm as possible so you don't use muscle power and so you can judge clearly and effectively. Muscle memory is what we rely on to be effective and we use Moo-shim (empty mind) to be able to more on reflex and instinct. There is a saying we have. The Most important thing to a moo-sa (Samurai/warrior) is his Kum(sword) and the most important thing to the kum is the blade and the most important thing to the blade is its temper. If the blade loses its temper then the blade gets dull and breaks. Same thing with us, If your temper is broken and you are inraged you till will not think clearly and become broken. Our Mind is the temper and Our Body is the Blade and our spirit is the sword. The way of Cooridinated power. Hapkido = The way to Harmony through mind and body Cooridination. (Hap= Harmony, Ki= Mind and Body Cooridination, Do= The way.)
     
  11. TheMachine

    TheMachine Valued Member

    I studied TKD for several years and am planning to try HKD. They are both good arts but TKD has one thing which makes it more appealing to the masses, the sport aspect. But nonetheless they are both good arts
     
  12. BSR

    BSR Valued Member

    That's actually one of the main things that keeps me disinterested in TKD.

    It's why I lasted through only two classes of Judo. :D
     
  13. Kwan Jang

    Kwan Jang Valued Member

    -Apparently I was a bit unclear in my post. A lot of recent research has gone into the effects of adrenaline on the brain and body. Creation of tunnel vision, reduced fine motor skills, tendency for people to "freeze up", incresed muscular tension, ect. These are factors that a lot of MA's don't really consider in their training. Some of the leaders of this in the MA world are Peyton Quinn and Bill Kipp of RMCAT. They've got some good material on this subject. After working w/ them, I've changed a lot of my ideas of what is practical to teach beginners and intermediate students for self-defense. Many of the joint locks and manipulations popular in Hapkido (which for myself, I still enjoy and use) and some of the more "hardcore" combat techniques and combinations can't be safely practiced by less experienced students under adrenal stress conditions. If they don't practice these under adrenal stress conditions and embed this into their muscle memory, they are likely to "freeze" or at least be ineffective when they have a real-life encounter and experience adrenal stress. Therefore, I have chose to train them with simpler and safer counters from jujitsu and muay thai at these levels. When a martial artist reaches a higher level of experience and proficiency, they are much better prepared to pull this kind of stuff off. A good example is if you raise adrenaline levels in drills in training (ex. adrenal circle drills) and you are working on joint manipulations, odds are you are going to be calling for an ambulance a few times per class. (I hate having to dial 911, it disrupts the flow of the class, then there is all that missed class time as they have to recover,ect.). This in not an attack on Hapkido (I have a 5th dan in Hapkido, you don't get that far w/o a passion and love for the art.)
     
  14. SoKKlab

    SoKKlab The Cwtch of Death!

    Thanks for that Kwan,
    Have had the same thoughts myself in the past, with reference to the realities of a 'street' confontation and Martial Arts Training (Across lots of systems) and have 'enjoyed' reading books by Geoff Thompson, Peyton Quinn etc on the subject.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2003
  15. BSR

    BSR Valued Member

    The thing I love about Hapkido is the variety of techniques. I certainly don't feel at this point that I would be comfortable using a complicated joint technique on an assailant in a real life fighting situation, but I don't necessarily have to. There are plenty of simpler techniques, such as strikes, blocks, and kicks that I could use as well.
     
  16. John_IHF

    John_IHF New Member

    The Join Manipulations are not difficult though it takes time for it to seep into muscle memory. Hapkido takes alot of repitition and it does woork on the street very effectively
     
  17. SoKKlab

    SoKKlab The Cwtch of Death!

    Like Most Martial Arts Really. But I think that the point that Kwan was making, is that

    1) the more complicated the technique, the more difficult it is to learn and then apply in a stressful situation and

    2) Keeping it simple is the name of the game in a self-protection situation.

    I really like Hapkido, I feel that it is a fantastic art, but I see the points that Kwan was alluding to.
     
  18. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    I personally like having the benefits of both styles and feel that they complement each other nicely...

    TKD has:
    (1) good linear strikes which are fast and powerful. (Big collection of kicks)
    (2) good footwork and mobility
    (3) a system which can be easily adapted for use in either sport or self defence

    Hapkido has:
    (1) excellent breakfalls... a must for anyone who is apt to fall down, get thrown, or swept.
    (2) Excellent non-lethal and non-damaging techniques, including locks and self defence techniques. All of these can be escalated into varying levels of pain and/or damage
    (3) a wonderful collection of kicking techniques... even more than TKD (which is famous for its variety)
    (4) Great movement... circular and evasive

    As for being difficult to apply joint locks and such in a stressful situation... I completely agree. They are veryu nice when they work, but you also have to have a backup plan if they fail... and for me, the backup is usually a quick TKD style strike.
     
  19. Jointlock

    Jointlock Valued Member

    Hey everybody new member here.

    I have practiced both TKD and Hapkido and I have to say that both are effective with the right instructor and personality type.

    But, traditional Tae Kwon Do was not designed as a complete martail art. It was designed to be taught to the Korean army as a martial art that could be taught easily to a group of people all at once. While Hapkido needs more personal training and hands on instruction. I'm not an expert on WTF sports tae kwon do and I don't care to be.

    The kicks that we do are similar in both arts. Hapkido has a more diverse selection of kicks from low, supported and flying/jumping. We do not practice forms/hyung in our style of Hapkido. So, that's another thing I love about Tae kwon do.

    As for teaching jointlocks to beginners I disagree that they should be avoided. Like anything else the technique should be learned to proficiency and then the stressful adrenaline training should be added. However I do see your point.
     
  20. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Nice to "meet" you! Nice series of posts by the way.
    In the above quote, I completely agree with you. Instructor and individual are more important than style in my opinion.

    We start joint lock training to beginners... it's important to feelt hem from day one and to practice applying them from day one. We do have to be careful and watch them.... which is why we team new stuydents up with senior students.
     

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