next time your in your sensies office check the certificates out, i can bet money that the real Shaolin kenpo seal is not on them.... meaning it is not authentic and that your instructor is not reconized in the world of shaolin kenpo[/QUOTE] Are you referring to GM Castro's Shaolin Kenpo? Just curious... Is there another Shaolin Kenpo branch? JoeV.
Just the way it is......... Man, I still don't know why some still feel you're supposed to do techniques, combinations or whatever you want to call them on the street! Hell, you might as well do a kata on the street too. It's all about coordinating the body, developing speed, power and accuracy-movement or the oxy-moron we call movement-balance for how can you move and be totally balanced? You can't, it simply means to be as balanced as you can while moving. The concept of the technique, the core of what it's telling you is also important. The idea. I was taught the most important principle in fighting is the balance/unbalance principle. If you can maintain your balance while breaking your opponent's balance and then you take advantage of their broken balance, you win! even if he/she's a better and tougher fighter than you. I can poke holes in any sytem's techniques if you want to deal with them as an end all to use on the street, verbatim as taught in the ideal phase. Is 108 combos over kill, ya, and so is 154 of one system's and another system's 500. Prof. Nick Cerio once told me that 20-30 techniques is all you need to sum up the whole system and develop your skills. Most go with a large menu these days, part of commercilism, I guess. The old fighting legends of Hawaii used a limited number of techniques and then borrowed from the basics to create others and became notorious in their day. Prof. Cerio also said show me more than the 20-30 and I'll show you variations. How many does boxing have? Five, maybe six and most average boxers can eat up today's black belts IF they were not trained properly. Practicing only in the air? I agree. It still should be done, like shadowboxing is to a boxer but you had better get some hardcore contact training in if you wish to have a chance of surviving in a real life confrontation against a worthy opponent. Point sparring? A game of tag" Agreed, it is. A second degree who self promoted himself 8 degrees. I assume you mean Villari? Yes, it does look that way but one has to becareful because if you delve deeply, very deeply into the martial arts, especially this Hawaiian derived Kenpo/Kempo but other arts too, you will find that Fred Villari went much higher than most icons, both dead and live, that founded 'legitimate' effective fighting systems when they created their dynasties. Many who have called foul, embarrassingly, found the same thing going on with their own grandmaster. This is fact. Back then consider "The One Eyed Man was King in the Land of the Blind", lol. Big names today and, in my opinion, are well deserved of their recognition. Why? Simple, that's how it was done back then PROVIDING, AND I SAY PROVIDING, you had the ABILITY and GUTS to back it up! If it's the Shaolin KeNpo of SGM. Ralph Castro, he did try to trademark the name but it seems like a losing battle because it has just about become a generic term as saying Okinawan karate and Shaolin kung fu, signifying many styles. Same thing with Shaolin KeMpo. I also agree, you can learn something anywhere simply because the cream always rises to the top. A good instructor is a good instructor period just like a bad instructor is a bad instructor no matter what his rank is or what is stamped and sealed on his certificate. There are some clowns out there with valid names on diplomas! Just things I've learned in almost three and half decades in this 'business', lol. Don't mean to 'jaw' with anyone, just my expereinces and opinions. With respect, Joe
I hope i did not and will not offend anybody by my post, as it was an opionion based on my exp in my villarie dojo! MY knollege of gm villarie came from other forums, my views on the combos and kenpo teq stand strong.. I totaly understand you do not go through mov a-z on the street and that you tkae this and that and understand how the mecanics of the body move through learning these combos as such... but most of the movements and mecanics i feel are horrible.. and we are not taught to disect anything infact we are taught that this is what we do in the street lol.. it saddens me and i have joined a bjj school and go to a boxing club twice a week and im having a great time and learning far far far more relistic and body improving material...
Not at all, kenpo123, this is a discussion forum, full of everyone's opinions, that's what it's for. I understand that. Take care and good luck in your studies, sir. Thank you, snow_tiger! With respect, Joe
Hello kickingfist, I was brought through the ranks and groomed for black belt and then tested by Gm. Villari by Hanshi Craig Seavey, now co-head of Nick Cerio's Kenpo. Craig was an extremely hardcore instructor and was very intimidating but in a good way. Everyone wanted to be like him. He commanded respect but not because he asked for it, you just knew he earned it. He had much respect for those he trained but he trained everyone in the rough & tumble ways that was the old way of Kajukenbo. This is not just my opinion, anyone who studied under him back then will most definitely attest to that. He is one of the toughest s.o.b.'s I ever met and we are still close friends today after our first meeting in 1974. In other words, I'd take a bullet for him. He left Villari's only because he relocated to the west coast for personal reasons. He studied the arts out there but at this time, there were no Villari schools as of yet. Mr. Villari had used Craig (in a good way, mind you) as a trouble shooter. He was once transfered to another school because of the dojo wars. Another instructor's dojo was raided by several from the John Keehan crew (Count Dante), remember, we're talking the 70's. The chief instructor, defended himself the best he could but still caught a bit of a beating. After all, it wasn't exactly one-on-one if you know what I mean, lol, but the guy had heart. Remember, another guy was killed back then, with a Samurai sword in one of Dante's dojo wars, this was no joke. He came back there the next day to teach, only this time had a baseball bat (Sheriff Buford Pusser-'Walking Tall'-style in the corner of the dojo behind him.) Mr. Villari put Craig there for a while to, let's say, straighten things out, there was a new sheriff in town. He did his job, then came back to Framingham and like I stated eventually relocated to Long Beach, California. Craig had a reputation as your typical bad ass street fighter and that was before he took kenpo so when he told me he had great respect for Fred Villari's fighting abilities, well, that said it all for me. Now. Mr. V. started his big expansion and things were changing. Shortly before Craig left and he left on excellent terms with Mr. Villari, it had nothing to do with him. Although, Gm. Villari was trying to get Craig to tone down his methods for retention of students nad liability at this time. Fred was crazy in his early years (I say that respectfully,lol) from the Emperado-Gascon-Pesare-Cerio lineage but decided this aggressive type of training wasn't going to work in his expansion plans. Now, Craig leaves and I'm a dinosaur and can't change my training methods, that's why in all my years of teaching I have a much limited number of black belts than the norm these days because you went to hell and back to earn it! Fred was ahead of his time. Much of his early methods have since been adopted by just about everyone in the martial arts world. Hey, I'm no longer with him, since 1981, and I have Villari schools right in my area, I wouldn't be pumping up the competition if it wasn't true. So, that is why I left, I didn't agree in the direction the organization was heading. In retrospect, I have come to understand Mr. Villari was right in many ways, liability became an issue but it was never heard of in the early years. Student retention is an issue if you want to pay your rent and continue propagating the arts. I think everyone has toned done to some extent, no doubt. You have to reach some type of compromise without selling your soul. My advanced ranking is still extremely hardcore and the lower ranking is no picnic but I still have to compromise a little, especially due to liability these days. However, because my wife and I, who teach, both have full time professions that take care of our everday needs so we teach soley as a hobby that we love to do and money is a secondary concern, as long as we pay our bills to stay open, we're content and if we make a few bucks in the process, great, cause we earned it legit! Hey, if you go to a good college you pay a tuition but as long as you receive a good education than it's all worth it, true? Sorry for the long post but you asked what I feel was an important question about Mr. Villari and since Gm. Villari made it possibile for me to be here to be asked that question in respect to him I just wanted to respond accordingly. Thanks, Prof. Joe
Thanks alot prof. joe I cant beleave someone got killed thats wacked! Their were alot of fights between dojos back then? Who were the fights aganst? And why?
So? If one promotes himself as an authentic Kenpo GM and claims to be certified by whoever, ya, then it's wrong, but I do know my instructor claims affiliation with nobody, is not officially certified by any international organization, but I do know this, he knows Kenpo (among many other martial arts), and he can kick my ass at will, so I have no less respect for him, and, in fact, have great respect for him. Point being, I don't think any "official seal" is the only way to judge someone worth.
Nothing wrong with that, sir. Many of the founding fathers were never originally certified or sanctioned by any organization or associations because they were not even exist then. Ed Parker was one of the first in America when he got the IKKA started for it seems that purpose. One of it's first actions was to certifiy him for 6th degree black belt just prior to the long Beach Internationals. Later, '78, Adriano D. Emperado awarded him an 8th degree black belt for his contributions to the art. As C.E.O. of his own organization and father of his American Kenpo system, he later took the 10 th degree black belt. There is a very fine line drawn with this legitimate rank thing, it can be very controversial as you keep checking back in history. So I think we should be very flexible in our thoughts on this matter. In my research on the degrees of black belt rankings, the first article I put up a link to for it's entirety explains how the black belt rank started and it's bascially as you stated about your instructor. check it out. The ranking didn't start until Funakoshi going to Japan, so it came about well after 1900's, around 1922. All these guys Sakaguwa, Matsumura, Itosu, etc. were all judged on their skills and never held any rank, never mind being sanctioned by an association. Ranking was soley for sport divisions started by Judo's founder, Professor Jigora Kano, for competition. Then Japan wanted Funakoshi to have some type of measuring stick when he introduced karate to Japan, becasue of Judo, hense the arbitrary 5th dan was picked for him and was and still is the pinnacle in Funakoshi Shotokan, he held the 5th rank until he passed. The other offshoot organizations like the J.K.A. went from 5th, to 7th and finally the 10th I believe. A close associate from Hawaii, A Kajukenbo Professor once told me and he even posted it on the Kajukenbo Cafe that an old senior grandmaster in Hawaii in Kajukenbo whom he has the utmost respect for and always calls him grandmaster as he truly deserves, never went any higher than purple belt for rank, not knowledge and skill though which he continued to proggress and learn. He stated many don't know this and it's kept quiet because his lineage might question their own legitmacy if it was made public. I say that's all b.s. because that was common back then, again, does that mean Okinawan karate lineage connected to Sakaguwa, Matsumura and Itosu are not legit because they held no official rank? With respect, Professor Joe
Yeah, that's the stuff, judging people by skill, not by the color of belt, or ever more, what stamp or seal is on the cert. I have learned the lineage of my Kenpo system, modified slightly from instructor to instructor...and it's quite interesting. What I do know, is "official" or not, myself and my family are learning some great skills, having fun and getting in shape...and you can't beat that. And every rank our instructor gives us I respect as being earned by skill because I know my instructor and he doesn't take his arts lightly, it's the love of the art...
kickingfist, the fights did happen but I wouldn't say it was like a steady thing or anything like that. They were here and there. Dante's group are the one's that really brought things to light with the death of a student. I want to say the name of the victim was something like John Konsevic, or something like that. This is no b.s. story, it's a documented case. I can't remember but it may have been something like a turf war. Do some checking on the net, you'll find it. Most of the others were simply motivated by badmouthing. Today it's done in cyberspace but back then, for example, if another school or instructor was being publically badmouthed, you had better keep an eye out for who comes through your door or is waiting for you in the parking lot by your car because that's how these things were settled. Again, not all the time but by the few that would take it right to your face. Back then, it would be unmanly to call the cops or take court complaints out. You'd be scoffed at. So, if you caught a beat'n, you licked your wounds and watched what you said next time. The only serious case I ever heard of was the Dante encounter which of course resulted in death. The Villari guy wasn't badmouthing anyone from what I heard, it was Dante's group doing it simply over turf. Most were just fights, some were sparring type matches but kind of like what the Japanese used to call back in the early years a 'Ketsugo' match-meaning something like 'anything goes'. It was a definitely colorful era. Respectfully, Prof. Joe
I really enjoy Shaolin Kempo. Prof. Joe is exactly right that principles are more important than the actual techniques. The techniques are used to build the muscle memory and reflexes, but that is the same in any art. I mean I guess everyone could drill in single techniques and leave combinations out, but that wouldn't facilitate the flowing from one technique and range to another the way practicing combos do. Hell, even boxers drillin combinations and I doubt that they are considered ineffective.
It was Koncevic. It was the Green Dragon Dojo that Dante and Koncevic went to invade and resulted in Koncevic getting killed by either a spear or sword. This was in Chicago. Fall River Mass. was the other power base for Dante and Aguiar and the Black Dragon Fighting Society. Aguiar's son, Bill Jr. is still running it.
Thank you, sir. It's been a long time since any hobby or pasttime has consumed me the way Martial Arts has, I'm loving every minute of it, as do my wife and daughters...well, daughters (ages 5 and 8) interests flows with the wind, but overall they enjoy it
Thanks Prof. joe, I read on another forum how a former instructor from ussd was jumped and crippled and was beatin with bars while walking home. My guess they werent to happy he opened his own dojo. Thanks for the info sir.
Like Octopic, I have have some of the same views. My test was 8+ hours with an 8th, a 7th, and three 4ths. There were only three of us testing. It was a challenge and a learning experience. My experience has been positive considering some of the stories that I have heard from the late 80s. It seems that the masters that I have met are very skilled, and have been around for quite a while, though quite a few of them are not running schools anymore.
