I was just wondering what the Shaolin Kempo community thinks of Fred Villari's dojo. I'm curious because I studied there as a child and made it to a pretty high rank before I quit. I quit due to a number of things, but I honostly didn't enjoy my training there all that much, and I found that when I was forced to defend myself very little of what I learned in there actually helped me. Anyway I know that it may seem like I have my mind made up on this school, but thats not the case. I'm asking here because I was very young when I left and I was very impatient and undisciplined as a child. Part of me is disapointed in myself for not at least getting to the rank of Shodan. So I've been considering the possibility of going back.
I can't speak to you from a Shoalin perspective, but I can tell you I was offered a Villari's franchise deal when I was a 2nd dan in Tang Soo Do. This made me laugh because I never studied Kenpo or Kempo or even Hapkido. So, what would I be teaching?
I went to USSD for a while, didn't they come from Villari's originally? I heard they train the same(almost) techniques????
MerKaBa: Thought you might find this interesting reading from another forum. It was a review of the DVD's on Villari's system, but read between the lines, and maybe it'll answer some questions you may have regarding the man or his system that you once trained in Re: Who is Fred Villari? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have just gone over the Villari series of videos of white to black belt. Black Belt magazine after doing a photo shoot with Gm. Villari in their, I think it was May 1975 issue, stated his abilities were as good as anyone elses (peers) of that time. Professor Nick Cerio told me he was a damn good black belt and if he didn't have a bad back which hindered his kicking, he could have been even better. Well, I will take issue with Prof. Cerio or just maybe Gm. Villari's back problem subsided because on these videos he did jump kicking, spin kicking, including spinning back kicks and spinning reverse crescent kicks, hooking kicks, scissor kicks, stepping stool kicks, etc. The range went from the knees and groin to the stomach, back and head and if he had a bad back I know there are those out there that would want the name of his doctor because you wouldn't be able to tell from this video. Gm. Villari's hands were as fast as anyones and quicker then some. He showed nice 'flow' and 'power' with pinpoint accuracy. Bear in mind too that he made this tape pushing 60 years old! I also want to note that I did not just watch clips of the videos but I made sure I watched the whole thing which I feel is imperative before passing judgement. I wish to thank my kempo brother Dan Weston for his asssitance. A comment was made about his weight in a former post. The man is currently 61 years old and he was over 59 when he made the video. He has put on a few pounds since I left him in 1981 but I don't believe at all that someone would point him out and say he's fat! Give me a break, I have seen pictures of many, many respected seniors in the different kenpo/kempo systems on this forum and a few I 've met in person and still others not on this forum, my point being I've seen some pretty huge guys that would make Mr. Villari look like Jack LaLane in comparison. A comment was also made on a knife technique. I checked it out. I am also a firm believer that as far as an edged weapon goes there are no really great knife techniques period. I also feel from my training the main objective is to control the knife weilding arm and sometimes, prior to control, a possible fast strike or two to the arm may possibly dislodge the knife. I found this concept in the Villari techniques and one reminded me of 'Glancing Lance', anoher one not shown on the video as a knife technique but a variation of which was given to me in Shaolin Kempo 30 years ago for an overhead knife reminded me of 'Raining Lance'. I am no longer affiliated with the Villari organization (left in '81) and with some of his schools in my area I guess you could say they are my competition so it doesn't help me to advertise for his studios. My point being there are many fine instructors in his organizations, some I am still friendly with and associate with. I know they are very hard working guys and girls who are truly dedicated to teaching and propagating the martial arts, yet, they always have to live under the shadow of the McDojo insults and so forth. Let's cut these brothers and sisters some slack and not lump everyone into one big bunch. In every large organizations there are the good, the mediocre and, to say the least, the not so good. You all know that. It doesn't matter if it's EPAK, Tracy's, Karazenpo, Shaolin Kempo or whoever. The larger the group the greater the cross section and the higher percentage of good bad and indifferent, not to mention the bigger the organization the more difficult to keep the quality control in check. And yes, some just get a little too greedy. Money is always an evil factor in the commercialism of the martial arts. For once, let's make this post a positive one for the people on this board who are directly or indirectly connected to the Villari Shaolin Kempo lineage. These hardworking martial artists deserve respect for their efforts. I can't be a hypocrit so I must also state I am still not in favor of video training for black belt ranking although I know it's the current trend. I think they are a great asset and supplement to assist in one's training or to help someone who may be too far away from instructors of a particular system. Just my opinion, maybe I'm wrong, old fashioned and just not with the times. Again, let's make this a positive post. With respect to all, Prof. Joe Shuras __________________ Professor Joe Shuras, Shichidan, Massachusetts President of Sijo Victor 'Sonny' Gascon's Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu Black Belt Society, Director of Communications/Public Relations of Professor Jaime Abregana's Hawaii Martial Arts International Society & Nick Cerio's Kenpo-Hanshi Craig Seavey.
I trained in USSD for 4-5 years when I was very young. Since my memories were primarily positive, I returned after my stint with the military. Well...a few things must be said. First of all, regardless of the school/system, there are many good, honest men who have excellent experience and a real love for the martial arts. That being said, upon first "interviewing" with an instructor, I was quoted an intro price of $260 a month! If I wanted, I could save some money...if I signed a 4 year contract! As if that wasn't bad enough, the instructor had less experience than me, and was clearly around my age. In response to this, I called my mother (several cities away) and asked why I had stopped training there when I was younger. She said that the test for black belt was in the $300 plus range, and that she couldn't afford it (since she was a single mom). As you can guess, I hold a rather biased view on the Villari system and USSD in general. However, I again state that many of the instructors are probably good men and women who truly love the art...even if that art is less than ideal. May you achieve Satori
Agreed, that is the unfortunate downside to having martial arts commercialized, and making your living from it , but hey if you end up training with a good instructor, then the choice remains yours in the end to pay or not to pay such prices
Prof Shuras knows a lot. It's why they call him Professor You can't tell much from looking at tapes and even less fomr reading about looking at tapes. Evaluate the instructor most of all before you go back.
Thank you all for your input. The commercialization was one of the main things that always bothered me as a kid, but I live in NY and though the prices are pretty high they aren't even half of what Satori81 mentioned... in fact just hearing that number made me fel good about the price I used to pay, perhaps they aren't as greedy around here yet? Also thank you for the information Pacificshore. It definetly helped me to put things into perspective a bit more, and I agree that you can't learn martial arts through videos alone, I think you really need an experienced instructor to point out the things you can't see, but I do think they can be a very usefull training tool.
The Villari organization looks a lot different today than it did 15-20 years ago. It seems like a majority of the 'problem' schools went with USSD. The schools that remained Villari tend to be mainly the ones run by people who have been with the system a very long time. Very few new schools have opened up in the past few years (one in the Wisconsin and one in Texas are all that I know of). Black belt tests are still expensive (which is something that bugs me), but in both my first and second degree tests, I was one of two people testing in front of an 8th degree master, so the price didn't seem all that steep for the 10+ hours of private instruction/beatings. The attitude towards franchises has changed as well. I just moved to a new area and there is no Villari's here. There's one USSD 40 minutes away, and so I checked it out when I got here. The instructor there is a nice guy and seems to be a good martial artist, however, he's the same rank as me and wanted to charge me $250/month. I talked with the Villari org about doing some teaching here and they said go ahead and teach, you can use the Villari name, and if you're doing it on a part-time basis, don't worry about franchise fees. I think if I had asked the same question 20 years ago, the response would've been very different.
When you visited the USSD dojo did they offer to keep you a Black Belt. I'm facing the same issue. I was told that I would need to start off as a white belt all over again. I was hoping that I could demonstrate my knowledge and enter at a higher rank.
That's absurd. They wanted me to retest for my 2nd since they require some different material at 1st, but they were willing to honor my black belt. I could see them keeping you at unofficial 1st and making you retest for your 1st, but starting you at white is just dumb. After all, you have 99.99% of the material that they would test you for black on. Are you sure that the instructor there has anything to teach you? I don't mean this the wrong way, as there are some great people in USSD, but are you sure that studying under this instructor is going to make you a better martial artist?
Who did you talk to? It may be that each school has its own rules. I may need to speak to the Headquarters and ask them of their position. Does anyone have any expeirence with this issue? Please tell.
I talked with the guy who was running that school. I have no idea if their organization has any official policy when it comes to this situation.
I used to take Villari’s as a kid as well and my brother is best friends with his son Fred Jr. I think it’s a great style. One of my friends (Steve Hagan) is a second degree black belt in Villari’s system and that guy would school me. On one occasion Steve and I were drinking quite heavily and I decided to see what he was made of (in a friendly drunkin way of course). I was taking San Soo at the time and I just wanted to compare the two styles. Anyhoo…every attack I threw at him he could counter easily and quickly without hurting me. To make a long story short, we both ended up out of breath and puking our guts out (so I was told the next day after waking up in the back yard of whoever’s house we were at ). So IMHO Villari’s system works great and I would take it again in a heartbeat, but sadly there aren’t any schools around where I live now. :cry:
Villari's Hi guys, that was my review on Gm. Villari's performance on the videos that Pacificshore posted. If you look back on it, you'll notice the different kicks I mentioned Mr. Villari performed in his techniques There's a reason for that since many Kenpo/Kempo systems can be described as an upper body system with low lined kicks. Now Andy Capp posted: I can't speak to you from a Shoalin perspective, but I can tell you I was offered a Villari's franchise deal when I was a 2nd dan in Tang Soo Do. This made me laugh because I never studied Kenpo or Kempo or even Hapkido. So, what would I be teaching? __________________ I definitely know where he's coming from but I would like to take the liberty to comment. I have heard this before from a few others when the Villari organization was going through their super-nova expansion. Gm. Villari and his Kempo came from Prof. Nick Cerio who came from Gm. S. George Pesare who came from Gm. Victor 'Sonny' Gascon who was of Kajukenbo. The 'Ka' in Kajukenbo stood for Korean KArate. Wait!, lol, before anyone says the Koreans don't call it Karate, I know that but that's how the old senior Hawaiians referred to it as back then. Probably because it was heavily influenced by Shotokan Karate. Just compare the forms. A Korean name given to a modified Shotokan form which was a Japanese name for a traditional Okinawan kata. My, what a tangled web we weave, lol. My point being, it wasn't that difficult at all for a good Tang Soo Do black belt to convert to this style of kempo. Let me give you a first hand example. About 25 years ago, I had a highly talented Tang Soo Do black belt come to me for Kempo. The guy was very talented. He came all the time and we trained together also exchanging techniques. Our 1-5 pinan series was very familiar to him, along with our Kata#4 and the Statue of the Crane which all had Korean counterparts. His name was Terry Gourette and he placed in the tournaments he entered in Region 12 (my part of the country) and he went up against their regular contenders, some top names. He was picking up the Kempo system real fast with no problem but I still kept him about a year before I tested him for shodan. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't even think of testing someone in one year, no way under normal circumstances but this guy got it together and did it quite well in a year, it wouldn't have been fair to hold him back any longer. So, I can see why they would have went after a Tang Soo Do guy but do I agree with it? no, of course not besides, my guy wouldn't have been ready to teach kempo right away, it still took a while for him to assist if I needed him. As far as these schools being all about the money as someone posted? Well, all commerical affiliated schools like this, the chains under one banner, no matter what style they teach, is about making money. Even the independants if they are FULL TIME instructors. They have to be because they operate on a full time basis and the instructors and/or owners are paying the bills and putting food on the table supporting their families. However, there is a right way and wrong way to do it, a compromise has to be made to do it properly but still survive. I, myself, prefer to operate part time. What I mean is, we open every day (except Sundays) but we have full time jobs. So, I only have to compromise enough for liability reasons but even then I take risks with hardcore training. As long as I pay the rent it's fine with me and if I make a few bucks here and there, great! In defense of the Villari organization today, I have noticed a lot of good things being said about them by ear and in the various forums. It appears their quality control has sky rocketed since they reduced their size and leveled off. Good for them! I personally have experienced this on the east coast in New England, I'm not too familiar with what goes on with the west coast schools though. Respectfully, Prof. Joe Shuras
VIllaries offers 108 combos, id say 100 of em would get you killed if you ever tried them on the street. The kenp teq's same thing. Praticing on the air gives you lots of................nothing......... point sparring............ tag your it!! but$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ will get you all the colors of the rainbow and then some when it comes to belts.. and helll, you dont even need to know your stuff when it comes to testing cause i can bet you your name will be on the certificate before you even enter the test... Just because your Chief Grandmaster is a 2nd degree black belt who self promoted 8 degrees he should have just went to a new level 15th dan anyway{who ran a chain of 10 million dunkin donuts i mean mc d's doesnt mean you cant learn something. Just make sure your instrucotor is older then 12 and doesnt have poker dots on his black belt ps next time your in your sensies office check the certificates out, i can bet money that the real Shaolin kenpo seal is not on them.... meaning it is not authentic and that your instructor is not reconized in the world of shaolin kenpo
