What do you think of this karate review?

Discussion in 'Karate' started by tooksomechin_na, Nov 18, 2013.

  1. tooksomechin_na

    tooksomechin_na Valued Member

    I wanted to get a second opinion, maybe than one.


    In the comments, if you care to read them, this person says he's been to 6 dojo's, and that while some MMA fighters know karate, that isn't what they are using in the ring.
  2. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    #5 It doesn't really make any sense to say that karateka are useless off their feet. Hypothetically speaking, so is a pure boxer against a grappler, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have effective training for striking or that they wouldn't do better than Joe Average. Finally, pretty much everyone who wants to compete in MMA needs some form of sub grappling training.

    #4 Sounds like a problem of his gym.

    #3 What?

    #2 I don't...

    #1 Ok!

    Honestly, sounds like someone who went to a terrible school, then got beat up by his wrestling buddies and let his bitterness cloud his viewpoint.

    I'm a grappler and have no doubt that these guys could knock me out.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUHJvcNU__w"]Andy Hug vs Francisco Filho - YouTube[/ame]
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2013
  3. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    I agree with Philosoraptor. That dude is butthurt. He's saying stuff we've all heard before but in a way that isn't original or funny.
  4. Dan93

    Dan93 Valued Member

    Noted he did not mention knockdown karate, agree about WKA type sparring, But to say Karate has no value based on his experience in one Dojo/ryu is a little short sighted, not to mention he has not experienced Okinawan style karate training a Japanese Budo system.

    I lost faith in Karate after the first few UFC and moved on to train in other systems, Years later and training again and seeing the art in a new light, maybe being able to compare to other arts was a good thing for me. Even when I lost faith I still kept refering to my basics as Karate is strong in drilling good movement/technique.


  5. Count Duckula

    Count Duckula Valued Member

    But sadly enough, it's often true, although not limited to karate.
  6. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    Meh , sounds like a recent convert to bjj venting because he wasted his time at a crappy karate school.
    It's nothing new there're probably loads of threads here basically saying the same thing.
  7. fatcat

    fatcat Valued Member

    If you think that's bad he is even more down on TKD .
    I believe he has some anger issues and his style isn't funny, just obvious (my opinion).:meditate:
  8. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    Cracked do this stuff much better .
  9. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Ok, y'all are all getting way too defensive.

    I left Shotokan because I got sick of looking for a good school (and failing) and in all the crappy schools I tried, a lot of what the guy says is true. And honestly, I'm surprised politics didn't make his top 5.

    He wrote a follow up post - 5 reasons why Karate is NOT useless. It's a lot easier to agree with this one.
  10. tooksomechin_na

    tooksomechin_na Valued Member

    Sub- grappling? You mean striking?

    Yeah, he mentions that part in it though.

    What is usually the procedure if you don't like your gym/dojo and want to go to another one? I wonder what rank the teacher of that dojo will have you start as. I hope not beginner! You're certainly not a beginner, but I don't know it works. It doesn't seem like it would be like transferring to another college, after you've already earned some credits at another one and they applied towards the program/degree you are pursuing at your new college.

    I don't see how going on fishing trips with the sensei would get you more points in a tournament. The referree gives them to you for scoring hits, right?

    You know grappling you said, what striking arts do you know?

    Yeah, I never thought the crane technique would work either.

    Honestly, sounds like someone who went to a terrible school, then got beat up by his wrestling buddies and let his bitterness cloud his viewpoint.

    I'm a grappler and have no doubt that these guys could knock me out.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUHJvcNU__w"]Andy Hug vs Francisco Filho - YouTube[/ame][/QUOTE]

    I was just concerned about this because I want to study karate, and my purpose is self-defense. I do want something that will actually be effective is someone attacks me, and I'll be able to fend them off. Just imagine the disappointment in knowing you spent years on something that was useless- didn't get you what you were seeking/wasted years of your life on.

    I remember looking at what Bas Ruten knew, 2 forms of karate, as far as striking arts were concerned. Provided that's ALL he knows for striking arts, then when he hits someone (he's retired now- so hit) what art is he using then?

    Is there any kind of "martial arts rating board" so to speak, some kind of organization that tests sensei's and students, on what they can do, and how effectively, and knows what kind of training they go through?

    Kind of like how the USDA put meat through certain tests to make sure it's of good quality. And, how say consumer reports has a laboratory and does tests on products to see how they perform. So, I could know if a certain dojo is good or not, and not a black belt factory.
  11. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    If your training doesn't involve someone trying to beat your face in, then it's basically useless for self defence and 99% of Karate classes (Kyokushin and relatives excluded) don't do that kind of pressure testing, ever.
    Bas Rutten was a good professional Muay Thai fighter. I don't know where you got the idea that Karate was all he knew.
    It's called MMA.

    If your stuff doesn't work in the cage (or in a ring under K-1 or similar rules), then I think you've got an uphill battle convincing people it works outside of the training hall. People have gotten Karate to work in MMA; Lyoto Machida being the most famous current example, but the way those people train looks absolutely NOTHING like what you see in your typical karate class today.
  12. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    I don't think I've ever confused sub-grappling and striking before, and I haven't now. What I was arguing against is the original writer's insistence that karate was useless because it didn't prepare you to grapple on the ground or defend against takedowns. The same can be said of any art that specializes in striking, so it's kind of a moot point. If you want to fight in a ruleset that includes grappling, you need to know how to grapple and defend against subs.

    I usually go with unobtrusively starting as a white belt, but letting my partners know that I've trained before and have enough wherewithal to practice in a constructive way without harming myself or others. Honestly, I don't really worry about what color my belt is. I still very much feel like a beginner and get my butt handed to me on the regular.

    Depends on the tournament, but there can be a ton of politics involved. It can be pretty gross.

    I don't know grappling, I just grapple. Maybe someday I'll know it. I'm still pretty unskilled, and, like I said, Andy Hug could knock me out with his pinky probably. I just wanted to argue against this idea that grappling beats karate every time. I've done some striking arts, achieved a moderately high kyu rank in traditional karate, took a bit of boxing, done some MMA and some kickboxing, but really am only competent enough to defend myself and go for the takedown. And even that only sometimes.

    The fact that an internet article made you question your training (especially THIS internet article) makes me think you need to watch this video:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imjmLWj5WCU"]MATT THORNTON ALIVENESS - martial arts most important thing Straight blast - YouTube[/ame]

    Watch it twice, thread'll still be here when you get back... Alright, so with everything Thornton just said, add to the fact that even if you become Billy Bad Donkey you can still get shanked from behind and die like a chump.

    He uhh... He's trained pretty extensively in other martial arts.

    I guess, I'd just watch relatively open ruleset sports and look at what does well. It's mostly how people train rather than what they train.
  13. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!

    He also did this one as a follow up - that chap ticked me off the first time I read his "5 reasons karate is useless" review, but this time, having also read "5 reasons to quit karate"...he just strikes me as angry and bitter with surprisingly poor excuses for hating on karate.


    @ OP: at the risk of causing offence, I might suggest that part of your doubt after reading that article is probably more down to you doubting if the training is effective rather than anything else. You can't stress about "uber effective training" all the time as even the most amazingly skilled guys can get their butts whooped by a drunk chump with a lucky punch and his mates.
  14. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!

    Anyway, aside from the fact it's bugging me that he's numbered it 1, 4, 3, 2, 1 :bang:, I suppose I better comment fairly in return. Rather than just saying he's bitter for the sake of it.

    @ 5: I don't know any good karate dojo where the kata is done in such a way that the "imaginary attackers" are slow, though there are slow movements in different katas. I doubt he's all that confident with the oyo bunkai/kaisetsu behind the katas to boot, mind.

    He mentions about ground moves and karate's lack of them. They are there, but it does take a good sensei to point them out. I also remember a seminar with Iain Abernethy who was doing ground escape drills and pointed out that, according to "Karate-Do: My way of life" by Gichin Funakoshi, he used to play similar games all the time as a kid. There's no reason why a good karateka should be completely useless on the ground. Maybe not as good as your average BJJ guys but that's a different argument.

    Also he only mentions one type of "kumite" or sparring. He doesn't go into the benefits of partner drills, knockdown karate (which takes real nerve to step up and do), weapon work or anything similar.

    @ 4: Yeah, I have never seen this in a good dojo. It sounds like the people he was with were total brat-bags and not worth wasting his time with. There's no "prioritise karate above all else" from anyone I would respect enough to listen to. There's also no reason why you can't squeeze in 10 minutes a day here and there outside the dojo mind, which can be done with any MA/combat sport/physical exercise.

    @ 3: He's right to mention the politics, which is there in any MA/organisation/sport/hobby in differing degrees. But that rant was more about the politics of being round some awful individuals who call themselves sensei. Good karate does breed great mental focus and discipline but it's as much as to do with the painful postures (stances) as it does the etiquette when you walk in the dojo, the dojo rules of conduct and so forth.

    @ 2: I don't know any good karateka that assumes that you must drop into a deep posture at the moment you're going to be attacked. Frankly if the first thing you do when someone gets aggro is drop into Zenkutsu Dachi and perform gedan uke with your opposite hand drawn back in the "chamber" position, then you probably deserve to get your butt kicked.

    As far as real world application though, there's no reason why you can't cross train. I use my kickboxing time as an opportunity to test my karate training as much as to kickbox. It's not a perfect remedy, but if you want to understand how your karate training might work against others you have to be willing to push yourself in my eyes.

    @ 1: He's just ranting on at this point. The crane kick was iconic in the movie for its' time, but that was it.
  15. Count Duckula

    Count Duckula Valued Member

    He also has a 5th dan kyukishinkai. That puts him ahead of 99% of all karateka in terms of being able to give as well as receive.
  16. tooksomechin_na

    tooksomechin_na Valued Member

    What you say about being "uber-effective" or whatnot, no. I'm not expecting to catch bullets with my teeth, or take out a gang of guys with my pinky.

    Yeah........and sometimes it snows in Florida, but what's the chance of it happening vs it not happening, more likely that someone would win against someone who is not trained or a little less or much less trained?
  17. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    experience and attitude beat training more often than not
  18. tooksomechin_na

    tooksomechin_na Valued Member

    It's fixed now, at least what I'm looking at, it goes 5,4,3,2,1, it looks like the ones you put for answers don't match the right ones, though.
  19. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!

    ^^ This :)

    It really does depend on the person more than what you train in specifically. Not all that long ago there was a vid of an MMA fighter getting lynched in a petrol station. At the same time I imagine if you look hard enough you could find a dude with no real skill at all fending nicely for himself.

    This is before you even get to the question of how much combative ability actually contributes to self defence (from what little I understand, not much).

    While it is a valid concern to ask if your training is of a good quality, I'm not sure it's that productive to stress over it.

    Huh, I must've clicked an old link because when I found it, it was ordered differently. If you read my comments vs his comments from the top of the page down, it should still make some sense.
  20. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    It's a mixture of MMA fanboy crap, misinformation and potentially valid criticism, in varying proportions.

    I've seen odd elements of most of his criticisms in karate clubs, it's certainly not completely untrue, but it doesn't undermine what you can take away from karate if you train hard and find a decent school.

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