What do you study and why?

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by Casado, Sep 21, 2005.

  1. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    I found both Chinese and English versions of Wu Yu-xiang's "Exposition on the Thirteen Postures," not believing that a Taiji master would really not believe in qi. This is the intro to the English translation:

    Mental Elucidation of the Thirteen Postures
    Wu Yu Xiang (student of Yang Lu Chan)

    Use the mind/heart to move the chi. You must cause it to sink soundly, then it can gather into the bones. Use the chi to move the body. You must cause it to accord smoothly, then it can easily follow you mind/heart. If the spirit of vitality can be raised, then there will be no apprehension of dullness or heaviness. This is what is meant by suspending the crown of the head. The intent and the chi must exchange with skillful sensitivity, then you will have a sense of roundnes and liveliness. This si what is called the change of insubstantial and substantial. When issuing energy (fa jin), one must sink soundly, loosen completely, and focus in one direction. In standing, the body must be centrally aligned, calm and at ease, supporting the eight directions. Move the chi as though through a pearl carved with a zigzag path (nine-bend pearl), reaching everywhere without a hitch. Mobilise energy that is like well-tempered steel capable of breaking through any stronghold. One's form is lke a hawk seizing a rabbit. One's spirit is like a cat seizing a rat. Be still like a mountain, move like a flowing river. Store energy as though drawing a bow. Issue energy (fa jin) as though releasing an arrow. Seek the straight in the curved. Store up, then issue. The strength issues from the spine; the steps follow the body' changes. To gather in is in fact to release. To break off is to again connect. In going to and fro there must be folding; in advancing and retreating there must be turning transitions. Arriving at the extreme of yielding softness, one afterward arrives at the extreme of solid hardness. with the ability to inhale and exhale will follow the ability to be nimble and lively. When the chi is cultivated in a straightforward manner, there will be no harm. When the energy is stored up in the curves, there will be a surplus. The mind/heart is the commander, the chi is the signal flag, the waist is the directional banner. First seek to open and expand, afterwards seek to draw up and gather together, then you will approach refinement.

    It is also said, if the other does not move, I do not move. If the other moves slightly, I move first. The energy seems loosened yet not loosened; about to expand, but not yet expanding. The energy breaks off, yet the intent does not. It is also said, first in the mind/heart, then in the body. The abdomen is loosened so that the chi gathers into the bones. The spirit is at ease, the body calm. Carve this, each moment, into your mind/heart; remember closely: when one part moves, there is no part that does not move. When one part is still, there is not part that is not still. Leading the movements to and fro, the chi adheres to the back, then collects into the spine. Within, consolidate the spirit of vitality. Without, express tranquility and ease. Step like a cat walking. Mobilise energy as though drawing silk. Throughout the whole body, the intent is on the spirit of vitality, not on the chi. If it is left on the chi, then there will be stagnation. One who has it on the chi will have no strength. One who does not have it on the chi will attain pure hardness. Chi is like the wheel of a cart; the waist is like the wheels axle.

    (Translated by Louis Swaim, in Fu Zhongwen: Mastering Yang Style Taijiquan)

    So it would seem Wu Yu-xiang did believe in qi after all. I read the whole thing and didn't see anything about "those who esteem qi lack li," either....
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2005
  2. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Your 'whatever key' is stuck again... along with your 'roll eyes key'.
    No surprise there. Same 'ol same 'ol from you. :D
     
  3. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    School report (STJ slowly on the driveway...)

    Disappointing response. lol :) 1/10 must try harder. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
    ...Young STJ exhibits an apparent reality/self-image schism that may prove crippling in later life, particularly in social settings. A possible career as a professional footballer or as leader of the conservative party beckons... ;)
    In the meantime I do wish he would address salient points rather than repeating himself in an almost autistic manner.
    (humour btw STJ in case you don't get it :D )
    :Angel:
     
  4. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    That was supposed to be humour?
    errmm.. like I said before.. don't quit your day job.
     
  5. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Thanks for posting that Onyomi, v. good read

    cheers
     
  6. Jekyll

    Jekyll Valued Member

    The line is;
    One who has it on the chi will have no strength.

    There are two translations of this line in The taijiquan Classics by Barbara Davis
    either;
    When one has qi, they do not have li.
    or
    Those who esteme the qi, they do no have li.

    From the same book, Zheng Manqing, attempting to justfiy these lines "These words are very strange. They imply that the qi is not important and fact it is not......"He then moves onto metaphysical rambling to explain why qi actually is important.
    Clearly Zheng Manqing was reading a different version to you, and presumably in chinese, if he felt that the line implied qi is not important.
    I choose the second translation as I felt that everyone who is not dead has qi according to chinese tradition, what with it meaning breath and all.
     
  7. Jekyll

    Jekyll Valued Member

    Yes, you are right about this. However there is only one reality that we all share. In describing this reality, the knowledge that the scientific method brings is unsurpased in accuracy. In fact, in a very Nietzschean way it is unsurpasable as it constantly surpases itself, learning from past mistakes and progessing onward.

    There is nothing wrong with "philosophy, religion and mysticism" you just have to be aware of their limitations. Just as science doesn't attempt to tell how to think and feel, to spur you onto new heights, these three can not tell you how the world works, only how you can try to work in relation to the world.
    Maybe it's time to let a little rationality into your life then. Let your imagination drive you on and the rationality provide a little reality check now and again.
    It's fine to say this. However, if you don't admit it is also something very real and concrete you are missing out on much of the glory of life.

    See, this is the problem if you can not tell the difference between arts and science, you are always going to be hopelessly confused by these discussions. Science(and history) has facts if you are apealing to science you should show the facts and let them speak for themselves. With the arts you're speaking. It's not about facts. This is not a problem.
     
  8. piratebrido

    piratebrido internet tough guy

    I see no one read my post about burglary and beastuality...

    I dunno, you try and bring some class and civility to a thread and look what happens...
     
  9. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Jekyll

    All I have to go on is the translation onyomi has posted.
    To my interpratation it seems in comparison that Barbera Davis is not particularly close at all to what he is trying to say. In fact I think if you study those 3 lines - you'll realize she is way, way off. You know, if she's trying to translate something for people who don't want to consider the multifaceted concept of qi - it's ok. but don't pass it off as the words of a Master when clearly they are not even close.

    the one in your sig is plain ridiculous - its a country mile off.
    'when one has qi' ?? the line is saying ; when one has intent on the chi/leaves intent on the chi - he is reffering to intent. Where on earth did esteme come from?? the whole paragraph has nothing to do with esteming anything??
    If she wants to write her own thought on it - by all means - but if this is some sort of translation/interpretation it sucks big time IMHO!


    It clearly says that the intent should not be on the chi. I think it is correct. Because it is like trying to force something. The more you concentrate mind to it - it's not free. Hence : stagnation.
    The wheel must turn freely, uninpeded. To put the intent into the wheel is like watching the hands of a clock; the harder you concentrate on it, the slower they turn for you. That's the best I can come up with right now :eek:
    But I hope you get the idea..Do her lines seem correct to you? I just can't see how TBH.

    Pleas excuse the metaphors; hope they don't turn you into a fantasist or something!
    btw, it can mean breath; but also a lot more. The foremost translation/interpretation I believe is akin to steam that rises from boiling rice.
    So, how's our steam today? We certainly have built up a head of steam on this thread. read 'vital energy'. Gotta love those metaphors..

    regards
    :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2005
  10. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    You create your reality and if you don't believe that, then it's true...

    :rolleyes: Thank you for your intelligent comments. Such a shame that not everyone who posts here is able to address the content without a prejudiced & hyper-critical agenda. I would like to respond with some comments... :Angel:
    I fundamentally disagree on this point - and it may be the fundamental schism between myself and a lot of other people. I happen to believe there are an infinite number of realities and that each individual is existing in their own combination of realities. There are of course local and universal laws, but these only apply up to a point before paradox and anomaly creeps in. Each person creates their own reality while obeying a consensual law, or laws, of reality in other words imo Reality is a fluid concept that can change instantaneously at any time...
    Again I disagree. The assumption of accuracy is derived from the scientific model. It's a bit like the Matrix - you can't see the illusion, because you're in it lol I think science describes 'a reality' and a general one at that, but it also shapes that reality (as in quantum mechanics etc [don't ask for a link, look it up yourself if you want to find out more lol])
    Don't know much about Nietzche, so I can't really comment on the reference - but I would say science is more about limitation than unsurpassbility ime but hey that's a statement about my reality...
    I think science is struggling to catch up with stuff like qigong and Taijiquan tbh...
    The same is true of science.
    Hmmm another assumption methinks tbh - depends on the model - and in my experience scientists are often telling us how to think and feel or at least their commentators are. I am not anti-science btw, I just think it is overrated and oft misused...
    I am absurdly rational by nature, I assure you. I am moving away from that side as I mature as it limits me too much...
    Spot on, I couldn't agree more. That is however 'a two way street' - all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy...
    Disagree. There is no 'admission' to make. A flower was more beautiful before I crushed and dissected it to find out what chemicals it was made of. The principal joy of my life is the ever-changing circumstances of it and playing with that. Glory cannot be assessed by scientific method imo - only the heart-mind (hsing) can approach that task...
    I am neither hopeless or confused in this discussion. On the contrary, I am only irritated by the personal attacks and irrational parsimony of some of the arguments presented. I am however always attempting to move back to a more reasonable discourse (as I hope I am doing here lol).
    I do not believe there is a definite line between art and science either - it is basically a matter of opinion. A good book to look at on that subject would be 'The Dancing Wu Li Masters' by Gary Zukav...
    My TJQ teacher (a phd in Chemistry and philosophy btw) always said: "Wisdom masters knowledge, knowledge masters no one" I agree with her. I do not think much can be gained by throwing 'facts' at each other when discussing IMA. There are way too many variables. Opinion and experience make for a much more interesting discussion imo :)
    Glad we agree on that. After all, it wouldn't do if we were all the same anyway...
    :Angel:
    PS Qi is a reality - but a separate one to the scientific one lol (see "A separate reality" Carlos Castaneda... and other sources :D )
     
  11. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    Another reality...

    Here's something I wrote last year. It's in the form of 'Power Statements' or affirmations... make of it what you will....

    Reality is Never Fixed. There are as many Realities as there are People to Experience them.
    I Create My Reality with Every Thought I Make and Every Breath I Take.
    I Can Change My Reality Whenever I Want to.

    In Each Moment Everything Can Change.
    I Now Choose to Change My Mind whenever it Suits Me to do so.
    I Embrace Change Knowing It Will Benefit Me.

    I Fully Embrace Life Now.
    Because I Am Alive, I Am Fortunate.
    I Express Gratitude for My Good Fortune Every Moment I Am Alive.
    I Embrace Abundance in Every Area of My Life Right Now.
    My Life Is Abundant.

    Life Is Completely Fair and Equal.
    I Choose My Happiness or Misery – So Does Everyone Else.
    I Choose to Be 100% Responsible for My Life Right Now.

    My Life Is An Unfolding Adventure.
    My Life is a Never-ending Experiment with Reality.
    My Life is Mine to do whatever I Wish With.
    My Life is Always Exactly How I Wish it to Be.

    I Am Master of My Reality Now.


    :Angel:
    PS I'll be in my bunker lol... :D
     
  12. Jekyll

    Jekyll Valued Member

    Yes, and there are many different source texts and translations.
    Well done for noticing that the two translations were different. However, this does not mean that first translation you read is correct. That is why I gave you some of the thoughts of a chinese thinker, which point towards the translation posted by O. as being incorrect/from a different text to the one he was reading.

    Sorry, if this apears overly blunt but you seem to be missing the multi-facited nature of translation. :D

    Barbrah Davis does tend to list the differences in between multiple texts, that she doesn't offer the one listed by O. sugests that difference does not arise from choice of source texts.
     
  13. Jekyll

    Jekyll Valued Member

    Taiji Butterfly.
    You use the word reality in the same way as I use the word perspective.

    Throw a coin in the air. If it comes down heads, it comes down heads. You can not close your eyes and make it tails. Not without physically flipping the coin anyway.
    This is the one non-consensual reality I am talking of. If it was consensual there would be no war, no suffering or death. You can not choose the world you exist in, you can only do your little bit to change it.

    You misunderstood me about the flower. you do not need to disect a flower to enjoy its reality, only hold it and smell it. Something you can not do with a metaphor.

    You've got popular quantum physics wrong as well. Its the act of observing that affects the observed, not the thoughts of the observer that affect the observed.
     
  14. Visage

    Visage Banned Banned

    Chinese tradition?
    Or more like Chinese Communist thought... :rolleyes:
     
  15. Jekyll

    Jekyll Valued Member

    Go on then, who doesn't have chi?
     
  16. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    Perception is reality...

    Jekyll
    In a paradoxical way you are proving my point lol :cool:
    In your perspective, what you say is correct. In my reality, it is not. I see little separation, if any, between perception and reality - subject and object are essentially one. Science specializes in dualistic relationships - meditation specializes in unity. Hence the Tai Chi circle.
    Perhaps - but probably not. lol Who knows if you and I define perception and reality in the same way? Or conceptualize it the same way, or feel and experience it in the same way? I am me and you are you and that is as it should be...
    Maybe. Maybe not. You perceive the above as a statement of fact dictated by an unalterable concrete reality. I perceive it as an affirmation of faith that creates a congruent response in the environment that reinforces the original belief. You are affirming randomness - a consensual reality subscribed to en masse in 'our' world. I am affirming dependent causation...
    "With our thoughts we make the world" Shakyamuni taught this principle (because you like links lol: http://borderfree.blogspot.com/2005/09/with-our-thoughts-we-make-world.html )
    The flipping coin is not actually random - the action of the flipper is. The coin conforms to the physical laws of gravity, momentum etc etc with an inexorable inflexibility - only the result is perceived as random, because it happens too fast and microscopically for our senses to follow. :) Do you believe it is not possible for a person to develop their manual dexterity and awareness to the degree where they could flip the coin with such skill that it would produce their predicted result the majority of the time? I do. (I also believe it would be a pointless waste of energy btw lol :rolleyes: ) It is all a matter of perception perhaps?
    I disagree. Randomness is agreed by consent in the illustrated instance, whereas in fact it is not the case! By consent, we agree the flipping of a coin to be a fair and random method of producing a 'chance' result. It could be manipulated were it important enough to waste your time developing the method lol
    Unfortunately not true. Many people profit from these aspects of the world actively choosing to generate them and participate in them. War has never been random or outside of human control. It is our acceptance and apathy that allows us to sleepwalk pretending we have no control over these things. Conflict is always a choice - this is a fundamental tenet of Taijiquan as I practise it (remember IMA what this thread was originally about lol? ;) )
    Sufferings arise directly or indirectly from our actions as individuals and as a group. It is also a matter of perception - I know people who suffer horribly if they miss an episode of Eastenders, and a person with no arms who expresses joy in his life...
    Death is a natural part of life. You speak of it as if it were a bad thing. Inconvenient perhaps lol but but not morally questionable, just nature.
    Another affirmation. Why not choose some that are creative rather than limiting? I choose my reality all the time. I LIVE like this. I prove it everyday as my life develops as a continuing experiment with reality lol
    Didn't realize you'd mentioned a flower tbh, I just gave an example of the limitation of science. Everything is metaphor, including the act of smelling or crushing a flower. Metaphor is just like qi, it does nothing of itself - it is simply a perceptual reference point. It is also beyond the limits of science at this point in time...
    Not in my reality lol I wouldn't be so confident about that statement if I were you (which I'm not so don't worry lol)
    See above comments. To me, observation cannot be separated from the thoughts of the observer but that's just in my reality lol

    To sum up - many people perceive that there is truth and there is delusion in the phenomenal world and that one should win out over the other... or that there is one reality that is fixed by unbendable rules and that understanding these rules creates an absolute truth (a metaphor for god btw imo)
    I perceive that truth and delusion only exist within the minds of living beings and consequently shape outcomes in the phenomenal world just as a shadow follows the body. There are as many realities as there are living beings to perceive them just as two people cannot physically occupy the same space at the same time or in the same way ever.

    It is okay in my perception for us both to be simultaneously right and wrong in other words lol :D
    :Angel:
     
  17. Jekyll

    Jekyll Valued Member

    Your description of reality as being consensual means that no one was every raped or tortured who didn't want it.
    I think this is a horrific thing to accuse so many victims of. Will you reconsider?

    So how many times have you opened your eyes to find it tails?
     
  18. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    No. That is your perception. I am a little surprised that you have shifted your position from the rational to a moral/philosophical one - but I am not uncomfortable with that... :cool:
    Before I continue, I must also say that it is vitally important imo to distinguish between blame and responsibility. They are not the same things.
    I am not excusing immoral, evil actions or the persons who carry them out. Evil is evil as far as I am concerned and can never be condoned...
    What I am saying is I do not believe in random circumstances and events even though the rationale may be unfathomable or outside our ability to consciously evaluate and/or understand...
    Okay - I continue...
    Rape and torture are premeditated and/or circumstantial acts, carried out by human beings, that happen in our world. However you perceive them, they will continue to be a possibility as long as human beings do not understand karmic causation (simplistically viewed as 'cause and effect' if you're more comfortable with that idea...but I will refer to it as karma as my preferred term...) and thus take responsibility for their own actions... therefore they are, at present, a part of 'reality'...
    Now, as I see it, there are two basic reality models available here:
    1.) stuff happens randomly
    or
    2.) stuff can be attributed to a cause in the past

    (I accept there may be other models available, but these are the two I am choosing to work with to deal with your questions/points ok? :) )

    - it is your choice which way you perceive it - the one makes you a victim of uncontrollable events, the other gives you the power to change it (ie you created the original causation in an earlier form and therefore have equal power to make causes where such events no longer happen to you)
    I know which reality model I prefer to work with!!
    I am not accusing anyone of anything. I would also say that 'victim' is an identification based in the perception and ultimately a 'choice' albeit one made under bad circumstances and as a reaction to extreme situations. It is either imposed by the perpetrator of the violent act, by those who try to repair the damage or by yourself or any combination of these. It is entirely possible to change your perception of yourself and others anytime you choose to, but the consensual reality tends to deny this possibility - this is one of the (many) reasons I reject it.
    I spent many years working with people who were identified in the 'role of the victim', so I do have experience in this area beyond the outrage/horror reactions of the popular (sic) perception. I became sick to death of reading books about rape, incest, torture, abuse etc where "you can never fully recover you can only learn to cope with it" is the basic message presented to the survivor. (I noted you used similar sentiments in your earlier posting: "You can not choose the world you exist in, you can only do your little bit to change it." This is what I generally refer to as 'victim consciousness' - something the majority of modern humans suffer from ime)

    I have also myself been identified in the role of the victim in the past by perpetrators, myself and professional interventionists - I only got better when I rejected the label and changed my perception. This required me taking responsibility for dealing with what had happened and taking control of my life - karma is a good working model for doing this if you study it thoroughly and know how to use it.
    It is a negative, debilitating, disempowering model if you do not understand it properly and act based on said ignorance...!
    What? Becoming a victim again? I don't think I will, thanks for asking lol Let me state, for the record : I was raped as a young child and systematically abused on an emotional, physical and mental level until my mid teens. I followed the conventional wisdom and help route for many years and only became healthy when I took control of my reality and/or my perception. I can now openly talk about rape, abuse etc without emotional triggering or irrationality. I live my life in a healthy free way rather than feeling permanently oppressed. Which one would you choose if you were me, I wonder?
    Randomness is not my field of interest lol
    Only patterns and models that can be used to navigate realities...
    Hope that answers your points - please ask anything you wish me to elaborate on....
    :Angel:
     
  19. averan

    averan New Member

    at some point you have to walk AROUND the wall...


    agree, good submission....but, once again, there is so much more to what the chinese author had to say than what is "translated" into english.

    the chinese think in poetry, in metaphor. the west thinks in zeros and ones, bits of data. we translate some of the trees maybe, but miss the forest.

    metaphor is useful because it is a type of code for deeper meaning. for more profound knowledge that through experience leads to wisdom.

    that is why it is important to learn the language the piece was orignally written in, so that you can pick up all the subtle meanings and suggestions that were meant to be communicated. chinese humor and poetry is based on that, they use the subtly varying nature of their language and cognitive system to slyly infer more profound/humorous meanings.

    if you have no experience thinking in this way, then you will get very little from the taoist classics. this was also a method of encoding secret meaning...only an intelligent educated student could correctly infer the higher meaning of the teachings---oral as well as written.

    your reality is limited by your perspective. if you have only 1 perspective, then how puny is your world? if you have more, then life takes on so much more possibility. i esteem a varied world view quite highly. (how's that for some funky english!) try fixing a car with only a screwdriver.....then try again with a toolbox full of every kind of tool you can find. metaphors are great aren't they?

    when rational thought gets you no where, it is time to get IRrational!!!

    through my taoist studies i realize(choose to see) that the world works best on a combination of rational thought (eastern analogy + western linear) and irrational thought (imagination and such). this is simply an extension of our good old friends, yin and yang.

    some out there still need to develop and grow on some more fundamental levels before this discussion will make any sense. i feel that there is something of an impasse here, a wall of resistance that does not need to be broken down, but rather gently walked around and left to dissolve in its own good time.

    i know which of you will understand this....and which of you will shout out that you do. the wise will see the wall before them and attempt to scale it or break through it, the wiser will let the wall be a wall and walk around.

    train more, talk less.

    nuff said.
    peace.
     
  20. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    Good post Averan - I would however disagree that it is necessarily necessary ( :D :D :eek: :rolleyes: ;) lol) to learn Chinese to gain access to the inner knowledge of the classics though. It is just a matter of learning to think differently, cross-reference carefully and train internally and intensively over time imo....
    ....but hey what do I know? Lol
    I agree about the "talk less train more" comment wholeheartedly - I just went out and did a round of my Taiji form and feel so much more tuned in to everything.....
    :Angel:
     

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