What do you study and why?

The 24 postures from wudang tai chi.
I've felt prickling all over, muscle pain, hot flushes, really heavy, as if I'm floating(when I've stopped doing postures, I've had my arms lift up to head height) and sensations which I can only describe as as if my muscles are singing where my body moves together in a relaxed manner under tension, and yes, some flowing sensations although these are more common to heavy hiking in the heat.
None of these sensations are unique to tai chi/qigong.

 

LOL!
There goes that whatever button again. Too bad you didn't take more time to post references to work you cite... naw.. it's easier to tell other people to get off their butts instead of doing it yourself.

Go back and re read your posts... you brought it on yourself.
The psuedo intellectual comment was directed at YOU not at Reich's work. Anyone who was half serious about citing works such as Reich's would have bothered to post a link or ISBN and not tell people to get off their lazy butts.
Hmm.. easier to tout Reich's work and then leave the onus on others to find the reference you're citing right? :bang:

No one has to pigeon hole you... you're doing a fine job on your own.

*waiting for the whatever button again...*

 

Whatever
eejit...

 

You might also keep in mind that qi does not exist only when doing Taiji and qigong. It exists in everyone all the time... therefore anyone can be subject to feeling effects related to it whether or not they happen to be doing Taiji or qigong at the time. Qigong is just exercise designed to cultivate qi specifically.

 

paradigms, consciousness

what we love most about our IMA is the felt-sense reality it takes us into.

what causes the most trouble for us is when we try to use a Linear western language/thought system to describe and understand something that is mostly an eastern Analog language/thought system.

What and How you think determine your experience of reality, ie, limit your possibilities.

i've read too many threads about people debating the existence and nature of Qi....using the linear western mind to analyze, dissect, isolate, and define the eastern analog concept of qi.

this is the great shortcoming of western thought....it delves so far into separation that whatever you're left with doesn't make sense anymore.

keep the context of the original inventors of the CONCEPT called "Qi".

it can be useful to recognize the many individual parts that western science recognizes as effects or symptoms of Qi, but eastern science developed the concept as a way to discuss and describe an analog system of relationships.

i would warn others not to get trapped in the temptation to pin down a single meaning or manifestation of Qi, and to remember that it is most helpful when used as a metaphor for being an integral being, living in the dao and such, mind, body, and soul in harmony, all physical tissues, mental patterns and processes working together in perfect synergy.

study Traditional Chinese Medicine. study Chinese history, look back to the roots of the "word" Qi and get into the eastern mindset to better understand this phenomenon and its source. this will further and deepen your IMA.

in the beginning, your qigong will result in physical sensations. these sensations will change in nature, intensity, location. as you transform your body your qigong will result in mental/emotional sensations. then it will transmute again to another level.....the spiritual.

excessive attachment to a specific outcome or sensation will eventually lead to stagnation. at whatever level you feel qi is the level that you are currently working on integrating into your whole-body being.

if you study the patterns and structure of taoism, the iching, you will find this pattern of integrating yin and yang, then transforming them to a higher level to repeat the process ad infinitum.

a great article about one of my favorite masters of old, Sun Lu Tang, came out in "Kung Fu Tai Chi" magazine, Sept/Oct issue, called "Sun Lutang's Martial Enlightenment and Structural Mechanics" by Ping Zhen Cheng and Dr. Jiusong Kan.

it gives a great little overview of one of the most comprehensive approaches to IMA you will find, ie, that of Sun Lu Tang.

i think most people get so excited about "feeling Qi" just because it is the first time they have really listened to their own body! Qi is normal healthy functioning. Qi happens all the time. but our perception or awareness of Qi only really blooms when our entire being is in harmony, with our mind focussed on a single sensation or intent.....then we release the mind and relax into BEING.

i wish this all could have been moved to a separate thread about Qi, because the original thread about what? and why? is interesting enough on its own, but now its been buried in pages of qi debates and petty mud slinging.....

peace,
-ave

 

Say something new or please just shut up, you aren't impressing anybody with your pettiness and you have no actual point to make as far as I can tell. You're just goading and attacking me and trying to shift responsibility for it. Address issues or shut up :woo: get over yourself you're like a stuck record lol (And I thought repeats were just on telly....lol)
jeez man where does MAP find you people? Get a life and get over your ego for heaven's sakes. Slip the jab? Slip growing up more like lol
:Angel:
Averan - you're neck and neck with Geo for best post of the thread so far imo...

 

Wow, now your a comedian.
Don't quit your day job anytime soon though.

The whole thing started when you got your panties in a knot because I pointed out that you couldn't be asked to post a link in reference to a reference you cited... and then you went on to tell others to 'get off their butts' - let the irony begin.

You were trying to come off as though Reich was someone that required soooo much effort to find anything out about... as if you were the only one who had put the time into and had gone through all the trouble to read and research and track down out of print books.... wow... for all that supposed knowledge it was too hard to post a link or ISBN?!?

All it took was a simple Google to turn up some reliable information on the man and his theories - the onus was on you to post the link or info... not to pull the typical snob tactic that is so prevalent on forums when people are shoring up their arguements with quesitonable references.

That's the point. In case you hadn't figured it out.

But hey at least you figured out how to fix your 'whatever' button...
though it seems like now it's the 'shut up' button. Impressive.

You don't like that being pointed out?
Too bad, so sad.

 

My point entirely
Oh well...
WHATEVER
:Angel:

 

hmm... at least insecurity over small type isn't your issue.

 

@ averan
that is a fantastic post mate, you said it perfectly..

Jekyll, I've been there - trying to get my head round qi..
it does challenge our thinking process..what you find is to open to the experience you have to attempt an integration of ideas. If you go back on my posts, you'll find that my thoughts on it are not that dissimilar from what averan has posted so well..

I don't see it as a 'mysterious energy'.
neigong aspects combined with qi gong do improve you power and delivery. The meditative aspect is good for reactions, listening etc. The qi thing is great for health & well being. I do not allude to it as some special 'power' to be gained. I just see it as something that has become beneficial to work with.

I can well understand someones reluctance to suspend what they believe about nature/reality..and all the rest.

The question of qi's true or real existance becomes kind of neither here or there - that may seem strange - but only because we cling to a reductionist paradigm. My pov now rests more on my experience before and after making some integrations of seeming polarized concepts. You forget the 'right' and 'wrongs' of it. You feel that it is a better experience all round - so you 'go' with it. You don't have to abandon what you know or believe. Just make room for something different.

I accept that mind function is by and large a function of brain and nervous system , I'm not crazy enough to dispute such a thing. Conscioussness is a very tricky thing to quantify though, even through the study of the physical organ. That spark of consciouss thought, seems to me the most clear instance that we can identify a source of energy within us. It can energize us no end.. I'm not talking superhuman feats here. Physical fatigue or weakness, sense of pain etc can be 'helped' by a cultivation or union of energy processes.

that's the trouble with language - ours is a little deficient for the purpose of discussing chi. - we need to use metaphoric language to bridge the polarized aspects of the languge model we use. This is less so in a language like chinese. Words may be a deficient medium to get to the bottom of such an experience or describe it well.

here's the thing it comes down (really) to just a choice. We are very attached to what is correct(right) and what is 'wrong' (can't be) - if you're open to experience, possibility and don't attach too much to any one set of beliefs about nature of existance - you can mould your own - through what you feel is the most beneficial experience and 'belief' system for your existance. Science with all its 'answers' cannot in itself bring to us quality experience of being. Doesn't mean you stop believing science. - remember there is also a big gap ahead of science not just those it leaves behind. These are the space we can fill through our experience. All the new info and breakthroughs can be integrated when they come along. It wouldn't surprise me that ultimately it all boils down to the same things.

It was just my poor attempt to suggest a reason why we experience these areas more profoundly in our practice

Well there's the deal again. It seems that the 'trouble' you're encountering is to do with your terms of view, ideas are clashing and you're not sure (been there) You are still viewing qi as some 'ideal' to be realized. It's not really an ideal at all. It's no silver bullit. I see it as an experience that is good for me. If you accept we all have energy - its not a case of an external mysterious energy filling the body - its working with what you have, what is - and studying it bringing it together, working with it to make improvements in synergy (to borrow a term from averan).

by all means.. I still occasionally daydream about jumping on a board and surfing the cosmos..don't lose the dreams, innocence and imagination of your youth. One day they will be a wonderful asset. Who knows? A 'back to the future' hoverboard wouldn't be a bad start. Anyway IMA is better for you than taking steroids!

regards

 

here you go, nothing whatsoever about chi, but it a great read if your interested in MA history..

incidently a sidenote on 'pneuma'.
I did some looking into systema a while back. Their tradition of breathwork comes from the orthodox church. I know for instance that the russian and greek orthodox churches are very closely linked. In the systema history I read about they made mention of their energy/breathwork has its roots in meditative practices of greek monks hailing from Mnt Athos (I think that's correct) (greek monastary) - mountain or island, or both, can't quite remember.

http://www.pankration.freesurf.fr/iupad/

 

Thanks for the link.

I don't have any problem with people using chi/energy as a metaphor, however I'm not sure how benifical it is to do so. A lot of the tai chi classics make sense taking the literal translation of chi as breath. Reading them as being entirely metaphorical you lose an important tool for monitoring your progress.

If in your conditioning, you focus on the developement of this sensation of energy and make it your main priority in practice, rather than focusing on the developement of a strong, coordinated, and responsive body you run the risk of disapearing up your own metaphorical digestive track and entering into a fantasy world.

If you practice martial arts I strongly feel you should ground it in reality for your own sake and the sake of those who practice with you. This metaphorical energy just seems to be a distraction from getting the job done. Hence my sig.

 

whatever

 

confusion reigns supreme here...

the very reason for my describing Qi as a metaphor is to ground the concept in reality!!!

Qi is a multifaceted concept....not just breath, not just tingling....detach from the fascination with any one particular effect of qi and you immediately ground yourself in the reality of true IMA: training mind and body as one!

you so aptly stated that over-attachment to the effects of Qi will lead you into a fantasy world.

you get Qi by training hard for basic all around strength, by training soft for elastic tendons and proper alignment and clearing obstructions/circulation, by meditating for strengthening the mind and the mind-body connection.

if i punch you with all my body and mind directed through my fist then you will feel the Qi!

if i stimulate an acupoint with all my body and mind directed through my finger then you will feel the Qi!

its a metaphor for when you're doing all the real-world stuff right!

westerners tend to glorify and mystify eastern concepts...concepts which for their creators are very practical "metaphorical" concepts---because that is how they cognize their reality!

learn to step out of your native cognitive system from time to time, the world will seem a larger place.

ps: please excuse the offensive nature of this reply...i realize it has quite a bit of bite to it. :Angel:

 

What the hell is the point of your posts? All you do is take each part of another person's post, describe the type of argument they are making and then ridicule it without providing any alternative arguments of your own. Simply describing the basic idea of what a person is saying, adding a joke and a isn't a debate or discussion unless you explain how that relates to whatever ideas you're trying to argue. The basic import of your posts seems to be: "I have nothing to add, but you're stupid "

I may disagree with Jekyll, but at least he provides his own alternative ideas and explains why he disagrees with me. You haven't contributed anything to this thread, only sidetracked it and filled it with mudslinging. Add something to the discussion or please shut up.

 

I think we're destined to disagree on everything. I like STJ. I think clarity of thought and backing your arguement up are of vital importance in a serious discusion.

 

Where do you guys come from?
I assure you it takes a lot more than this to offend me.

The only thing I don't get; If qi is just a metaphor, why bother with it?
Good qi=smooth moves. Fine, but you can obviously see people take it much further than that, and act like it has a real existence, that it is an actual energy. onyomi thinks it realy exists and Taiji Butterfly claims it is similar to the bions/orgasm essence that a rejected physics theory from a psychotherapist points to.

Surely it would be much easier to avoid confusion and state everything clearly in a language we all speak, English, due to my obvious bias .

 

Maybe STJ's posts are polite and informative elsewhere, but they certainly haven't been in this thread. I'm all for clarity and corroboration and have done my best to put both into my posts. It would be one thing if he were just trying to "keep people honest," so to speak, but he hasn't been pointing out any factual flaws, only perceived problems in the way people present their arguements and without adding any information of his own. He asks me, for example, to back up an argument I never made, i.e. that China's military was powerful because of qi. I also find it ironic that he ridicules TJB for asking others to do their own research while simultaneously asking me to dig through Chinese military records to support a point I never tried to make. At this point, though, I'm just going to push the "whatever" button on this thread.

 

I used to feel the same way, but since then I have changed my mind. I can feel Qi during training, and its not just a metaphor. Perhaps you should get together with them with an open mind and see if you feel anything.

 

The MAP trickcyclology of qi-ism...

All life IS metaphor....

Science is mere analysis of substance - in itself it can't perform martial art without a mind to direct and utilise its findings. As I have (somewhat controversially lol) said elsewhere before, imo science is basically a 'method', a 'belief system' - it is not the only one... like it or lump it, that IS a fact and not an opinion. Because of science's present dominance in the field of human endeavour there is a tendency for lay people to sneer at such methods as philosophy, religion and mysticism - the enlightened are not so hasty ime...
The human mind embraces, rationality and imagination... it can produce both theory and poetry in equal measure and people can act on either or both imo. :Alien:

All life IS metaphor....

I don't have links for the above wordage btw, unless you wish to link directly to my imagination that is.... LOL (and trust me you do not want to go in there :yeleyes: )

And STJ... I'll post links to back up my ramblings when YOU take the time to get up off your butt and fill in your profile so the rest of us can get some kind of idea of exactly what your martial arts experience (if any) IS and how qualified you are to be sniping on a martial arts forum at other people who have taken the time...
OO ARE YER?? :bang: lol
In the mean time - Whatever! roflmfao
:Angel: