What do you consider to be authentic Ninjutsu

Following on from my last thread "Why do you study Ninjutsu" I would really like to hear everyones views regarding what they consider to be "Authentic" ninjutsu?? Within the martial arts community we all know only to well that the name/word Ninjutsu has less than a very poor reputation and this only seems to get worse over time coupled with the constant slagging matches that have been seen on the ninjutsu forum, at seminars, Tai-Kai's and especially when speaking with other martial arts stylists. Some of them even laugh when you mention the word Ninjutsu. So, if anyone would like to share their views I think this could prove to be a positive step towards understanding what people consider to be authentic ninjutsu.

Cheers guy's.

 

Well, in general you can look at "real ninjutsu" in order of authenticity. First I would say Antony Cummins, then Ashida Kim, Harunaka Hoshino, and lastly Junichi Kawakami. I guess you could add Stephen K Hayes too. Sorry, had to put that out there before somebody beat me to it.

 

Sorry to be boisterous. If you are interested in real ninjutsu, learn Japanese, come to Japan, and go to any major library and read about it. There is enough on the subject to give you a good idea of what ninjutsu was and then you can make up your own mind who now(if anybody) fits into that construct. You won't find much real ninjutsu online and even less outside Japan.

 

Thanks for your comments reality-please, that's an interesting statement.

Excuse my ignorence here but whats wrong with Jinich Kawakami??

regards

R

 

fair play mate.

regards

R

 

I think 'authentic ninjutsu' covers too much and is too intertwined with Budo in general to be able to answer this question in a way that covers everything.

Various Koryu schools have elements of what could be considered authentic ninjutsu.

Most people will steer toward the Takamatsuden arts, and the X-Kans, however for the most part what is taught is various weapon disciplines, Jujutsu and Taijutsu.

You have 'ninjutsu' schools such as Togakure Ryu, although the history cannot be proven, so whether this is considered authentic ninjutsu depends on your own point of view, and whether you believe the information provided. This is probably the most famous school associated with Ninjutsu, but if you look at it in any detail, most of it is Taijutsu. Hatsumi and Tanemura sensei both call what is taught Taijutsu, Budo Taijutsu and Ninpo Taijutsu.

So for me, I don't think I consider any individual school to be authentic ninjutsu, but see it all as Budo, with elements of authentic ninjutsu found here and there.

 

Thanks for that Kobudo.

This brings to my attention that only "snipets" of so called ninjutsu are being taught which again leads us into your recent thread regarding deception.

In my humble opinion, to be considered as teaching authentic ninjutsu your training should include:Taijutsu, Kobujutsu, Nin-Ki, Yagen, Shinpi, seishin tekki Kyoyo, inton-jutsu, Gotonpo-jutsu, Yumi & ya, Fukiya, kuji-goshin-ho, Tai-ho, Kumi-uchi etc, etc, etc.

Any thoughts regarding this?

kind regards

R

 

In my opinion I don't think that is necessary, and I would expect that many in the past that have undertaken 'Ninja' type operations have not had training in all elements that could be considered ninjutsu.

A samurai, trained highly in sword, naginata and jujutsu, asked to perform a reconiscense opration could be considered to be undertaking a 'Ninja' type operation - but did they need meteorolgical training?

If they underwent some extra training in being undetected, are they training in ninjutsu at this point?

I think if you are training a Koryu art, and you do something that touches on ninjutsu, you can say you have been studying authentic ninjutsu on that basis.

I don't beleive there exists any firm - 'To be a Ninja you must have trained all of this to mastery.' list, I think it would depend on the circumstance of the person, the time, the required mission, etc

If Ninja did exist (which is a different debate) I beleive they would train in various schools, and the result would be an amalgamation, not dissimilar to that found within Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan, etc. I find it unlikely that people trained specifically as Ninja, at any point in time. If someone wanted fighting skills, they would learn a system, if they wanted something else, they would learn it, if they ended up doing 'Ninja' type activities they did so using skills otherwise learned.

Just my opinion

 

Have a think about this one guy's.

Reality-please; has mentiond in the above reply that you should learn Japanese and go to any library and read about it. He (assuming here Reality-please) has also mentioned that "If anybody teaches it outside of Japan?? A fair enough comment.

Kobudo has mentiond (as can be seen above), that the history cannot be proven.

We are at present on the ninjutsu forum and have at some point been engaged in heated discussions, sniping and differences of opinion regarding this very subject yet according to these early posts (thanks for that by the way guy's) we really don't know if ninjutsu is being taught at all??? Should there be a ninjutsu forum? Why advertise as teaching ninjutsu (or claim to teach it within any organisation) if there is no solid proof that it exists and what do we take as being true or false regarding a subject that we are all passionate about (Assuming again I'm affraid)? The most comical part of course is that moderators have stepped in on many occaisions due to comments being made regaring this person said that, I said this and it clearly seems that ninjutsu does'nt exist and if it does only in snipets which would be incomplete yet we argue about it.

Any ideas regarding this?????

kind regards

R

 

Please can I just point out, that I didnt say Ninjutsu can't be proven, some koryu have well documented ninjutsu type training.

I said that the history of Togakure Ryu cannot be proven.

Sorry to nitpick but the two things are pretty different.

Thanks

KB

 

I have noticed that you mention various aspects of training "touch" on ninjutsu.

When I was first introduced to "Ninjutsu" it was by way of the BJK Togakure-Ryu Ninjutsu. This was the name given in the late 1970's early 80's to what is now known as BBT. I was dead keen at the age of 19 and thought I wanna be a ninja. Stupid I know, but I have a tendancy to tell the truth on this site and suffer the consequences later.
Anyway, what I am saying corresponds with your thread Kobudo; Are we meerly following a blind target by only being subjected to a few random parts of an art and if so, why advertise as Togakure-Ryu, Kamogakure-Ryu, Gyokushin-Ryu if as you have mentioned 2Ninja" firm/school par-se are not individual schools of the art??

Good valid post by the way.

Regards

R

 

Point taken and apologies for that Kobudo.

regards

R

 

I think to some extent, marketing it as Ninjutsu made the organisations as successful as they are today, the Ninja boom was so big we are still recovering from it after 30 years.

I think this lead to anything that contained elements of ninjutsu being referred to as Ninjutsu.

Togakure-ryū Ninpō Taijutsu
Gyokko ryū Kosshijutsu
Kuki Shinden Ryū Happō Bikenjutsu
Koto Ryū Koppōjutsu
Shinden Fudo Ryū Daken taijutsu
Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryū Jūtaijutsu
Gikan Ryū Koppōjutsu
Gyokushin-ryū Ryū Ninpō
Kumogakure Ryū Ninpō

As you can see, Ninjutsu doesn't actually appear anywhere as a specific school.

The term Ninpo Taijutsu has been used, and also Ninpo, although the differences between this and ninjutsu have been done to death on here.

There are others who can probably comment better than me, but I think Gyokushin Ryu and Kumogakure Ryu have the same issues as Togakure Ryu when it comes to proving their origins, I could be wrong though??

My studies have been more focused toward the Jujutsu and Jutaijutsu Ryu.

 

Actually you are quite correct.

I think however we are splitting hairs here (which is difficult for me seeing as I don't have any), Ninpo rflects the higher order of ninjutsu, jutsu relating to the physical skills.

As you will be aware, Ninpo has both "Bumon and "Shumon.

Kind regards

R

 

Not so much splitting hairs, depending how you look at it.

As you said Ninpo is seen as the higher order of Ninjutsu, containing both Bumon and Shumon, the spiritual and physical aspects.

However also discussed is that ninjutsu would incorporate many different disciplines, more so than just the physical taijutsu or weapon training.

Unless Gyokushin Ryu and Kumogakure Ryu contain all of these as well as the spiritual elements, Ninpo is being used in a different context than just being a higher order of ninjutsu as a whole.

Ninpo taijutsu, is more accurate, to include the physical fighting skills with the spiritual element, however as discussed previously, this is predominantly Taijutsu, with ninjutsu elements.

Training in ninpo taijutsu is not the same as training in ninjutsu - although it's been called the same in the past.

 

Yes I can appreciate what you are saying and agree with your explanations.

What I am looking for Kobudo is a definitive answer to the original question as to what is considered to be authentic ninjutsu. I am using the word Ninjutsu as a generic term which will cover a multitude of areas as we are both aware of. i also appreciate that I/we or anyone for that matter may never get a definitive answer to the question posed.

Does it have to be Takamatsuden linked to be authentic?

What is it about "Ninjutsu" that other martial artists find so comical?

Can anyone legitamately claim to teach Ninjutsu/Ninpo?

I call my system MCNS (Modern Combat Ninjutsu System). The reason for this is because I used to hold a hatchidan in the BJK (all be it ten years ago) and have adapted a lot of the taijustsu techniques combind with JKD into one pragmatic system. Is this deemed as wrong?? The techniques that I have adapted over the years have been pressure tested in real situations. I don't claim to teach BJK and I will and have always steered people in the direction of the kans if thats what they are looking for.

with regard to indepth knowledge regarding Koryu, classical martial arts; You and Chris Parker are the people I would ask others to contact as you know much more than I do and I will openly admit that.

Like everyone who has a genuine interest, it's the truth regarding what is considered to be authentic ninjutsu/ninpo/ninpo taijutsu/shinobi-no-jutsu/Kusa-jutsu etc that I ould like to know.

kind regards

R

 

Now, if somebody told you ninjutsu wasn't real, he was probably a ninja and it was an example of kyojitsu tenkanho. There is no debate about whether ninja actually existed historically in Japan. Having said that, even most Japanese people know nearly nothing about what ninjutsu was.

Now back to your original question, what is ninjutsu comprised of? You mentioned meteorology, but that wasn't specific to ninja, it was kind of common sense to know how to weather to win a battle. Just ask the Imagawa if you doubt how important it was to all bushi. Ninjas used firearms and explosives as well, so you could argue that this is also a part of ninjutsu. So is disguise, knowing how to measure height and distance at a glance, and a lot of other things. Some have said that ninjutsu incorporates all bujutsu and if you think about it, it makes sense.

Some historical ninja were even hatamoto, so that makes them bushi. Some were bodyguards/gate guards and the like, and others were spies for the Tokugawa bakufu. As part of disguise, they would often dress like different kinds of monks/priests, so religion would have been a part of ninjutsu too. SOme were medicine sellers so medicine is part of ninjutsu.

Now Koto ryu is kosshijutsu but supposedly was the ryuha that the Iga ninja used for fighting. Could be.... Clearly ninja would have had to have known how to fight, but also how to avoid fighting when it was not in their interest to do so. So taijutsu and learning how to control their body would have been very important. So would have weapons.

Perhaps a better question should be what is not authentic ninjutsu? If you haven't read any Japanese accounts on ninjutsu, from a variety of sources, then you are left with what other foreigners are telling you the Japanese believe or think. Better to hear from the horse. Since finding out the secrets of their enemies was part of ninjutsu, authentic ninjutsu incorporates research. When spying in another han, they would have to fit in, so learning another dialect/language is part of ninjutsu. So you see that a lot of so-called ninja shidoshi, sensei, anshu, whatever have failed to demonstrate that they are learning anything more than taijutsu, which is but a part of authentic ninjutsu.


ps-Sandstorm mentioned that he was a hachidan, how many years did you live in Japan? If you don't know that ninjas existed, why call your art ninjutsu? Sure they existed, no need to travel to Iga/Koga to prove it either, just go to Hanzomon in Tokyo and see for yourself. Go to Okubo and look at Hyakunincho.

 

More the reason you should learn to read Japanese and read what is available on the subject. Then you will be better prepared to examine what different teachers claim and what different ryu demonstrate. Barring that, how do you know what people tell you is the truth and not just some more kyojitsu tenkan?

 

So what you are saying here, is that anyone who wants to know what ninjutsu is should learn to speak another language, specifically Japanese!

I have over the years been to Japan, Ireland, USA, UK, Tai-Kai's, seminars etc and if what you are saying is correcet (and I'm not for one minute saying it is'nt) no one knows what true authentic ninjutsu is and what we have all been studying for so many years is not ninjutsu?

I appreciate your comment but surley this would also apply to every other Japanese martial art as well??

Regards

R

 

To answer you question reality please.

I visited japan for training purposes at hombu. of course I know that ninja's existed as I know (like most people who are kan, ex kan in my case).
Why call my system ninjutsu? Why not?? If you were to see me train/teach you could not mistake the movements for anything other than modernised Ninpo-Taijutsu.

To be perfectly honest with you, I don't know if what I was being taught was as you say ninjutsu or Kyojitsu Tenkan-Ho. If what you are suggeting regarding learning to speak Japanese in order to understand the difference between the truth and lies is in fact correct, then the majority of members of each kan would not know the diference which would suggest that the non bilingal majority really don't know what they are being taught.

Kind regards

R