What defines a Martial artist? (Taekwondo)

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by matutor, Oct 19, 2015.

  1. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Step sparring is a whole other issue :D

    As for sparring, much TKD is based on competition. People in normal TKD should be sparring. A lot.

    Again, you may not like the rules for the sparring as it is frequently very limited*, but ask a normal TKD guy how they know they can kick someone in the head who doesn't want to be kicked in the head, and they should tell you, "because I did it last lesson."

    Mitch

    *But then, some arts don't even allow punching! Can you imagine? :D
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2015
  2. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    It really, really isn't.

    Mitch
     
  3. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Mitch. Yes it really is the same question. They don't spar, so they get asked that very question. So again. If you don't sparr your techniques, how do you know it works against a real life instigator, or attacker, or drunk person, or anyone else that fights back for that matter?

    I am well aware that TKD spars. However, does that sparring reinforce the need to actually use the hands and arms for attack and defense against punches? It may prepare them to kick someone who doesn't want to get kicked, but does it prepare them to defend their head from someone who wants to punch them?

    I mean, no one questions weather or not a TKD who spars, can kick someone. They question weather or not they are capable of using the other 90% of the art in a live situation.
     
  4. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    As we spar with punches and other techniques to the head and body, yes.

    But again, you are equating sparring with SD. :)

    Mitch
     
  5. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Sparring in certain formats is comparable to fighting and fighting is a component of self defence. It's not the only part, its not a guaranteed part, or indeed the only physical part but its a part. Almost every popular martial arts contains the inherent promise of improving your ability to fight.
     
  6. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Again, degrees and overlaps, but not the same thing. The 'Martial Map' is a simple example. :)

    Did their class promise self defence? I have no idea. Sounds like a poor class though, given the lack of sparring/pad work.

    Mitch
     
  7. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    I think anything that tells you 'when someone throws a punch at you do this' is making inherent claims of improving your ability to fight. Most TKD schools list self defence as an aim of training. I've never ever seen one that doesn't.

    Regarding self defence and fighting and sparring I agree they are not the same thing and explicitly stated so in the post you quoted but they are closer than some try to state.
     
  8. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    I teach sparring and SD as different things. As you say, there is overlap, but they aren't the same, and we see that in BJJ, Judo, everything really.

    Mitch
     
  9. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Also I think it's impossible to ignore the absolute lack of quality control in TKD.
     
  10. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Yes absolutely.
     
  11. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Mitch, you keep repeating, that sparring and sd are not the same. WHy are you not addressing the fact that, sparring allows you to do techniques against a resisting unscripted partner. Again, how can you SD with out some kind of unscripted resistant training? Sparring is the single best way to do it. Again, Sparring is not Sd, but you can not SD with out sparring. SImple as that. Please show me how I am wrong? Sparring =pressure against a resistant and UNSCRIPTED partner. No amount of drilling can replace it for SD.

    I did not know you were ITF, that explains why you have a more open sparring format. However, most other TKD styles do not spar under your rules, a great majority do it under some kind of Olympic rule set. The criticisms are usually aimed at those schools.

    The repeated mantra of Sd is not like sparring, is annoying, as it seams like it is trying to imply that you don't need to spar to have a chance at SD.

    Edit 2. Yes I am equating sparring with self defense, as open rules sparring is as close to a real fight and useage of unscripted force you can get.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2015
  12. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    A) You're now doing exactly what the OP did and taking the topic elsewhere. They had a problem with their class, they extended that to TKD, then confused a load of issues then posted videos titled things like Why TKD is USELESS and pretended it was an unbiased critique. That may be why they came in for some flack. :D They also exhibited a far less informed viewpoint than yourself and called themselves MATutor. That's always going to end well :D

    Just to indulge you;

    B) What is the lack of quality control?

    C) How is this not mirrored in other arts?

    D) How is this not mirrored in every avenue of life?

    Mitch
     
  13. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Personally I think the ITF style clubs generally are terrible too.
     
  14. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Deffo seen in other arts and in other areas of life.

    Quality control issues present as advanced students who can't fight.
     
  15. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    The repeated mantra of sparring does not equal SD is annoying you because you haven't come across unscripted, uncompliant, fully resistant, SD based training where virtually any technique goes which is different.

    Which is a shame as there are numerous threads on MAP about this sort of training :) Go to the SD forum and look through the Sim Day threads. These are not drills. They are pressure testing against (sometimes several) UNSCRIPTED partners. These are as close to a real fight as you can get, not sparring :)

    Don't get me wrong.

    I'm not arguing that TKD is the best thing since since sliced bread.

    I'm not arguing that it's the most efficient way to learn to compete under MMA rules.

    I'm not arguing that it's the most efficient way to learn self defence.

    But it should involve regular pressure testing against a resisting opponent for the sparring it offers.

    It should also involve a number of other disciplines which offer a competitive outlet and physical challenge for those not interested in sparring.

    It should offer a sporting outlet for people who happen to enjoy that sport (imagine, doing something because you just happen to enjoy it, not because you need to be a 'rounded fighter' for the statistically unlikely event that you should be in a violent encounter :D ).

    It should offer realistic self defence training if that is one its stated goals.

    Ask yourself how many arts actually offer that? My count is on the fingers of one hand with some fingers missing :D

    Mitch
     
  16. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    And in other areas of life, we expect people to just be grown ups, no? Learning patterns obviously doesn't teach anyone to "fight," whatever you think that means.

    A TKD BB who can't spar under TKD rules is definitely an issue of quality control, yes.

    Mitch
     
  17. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    I have put myself and a near 50 year old female student of mine in riot gear then tackled her, thrown her to the floor, tried to smash her repeatedly in the face whilst hurling the vilest obscenities at her about exactly what I was going to put where, and she has fought me off.

    I don't know what else anyone might want from the physical aspect of SD training?

    Do you do SD specific training in your class? Start with verbal distraction, strikes etc?

    Mitch
     
  18. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    A fight is not a complicated concept to be honest and not sure why it has to be so abstracted although nuances clearly exist.

    But people do believe that patterns contribute to their ability to fight along with other equally ridiculous methods because of a common ignorance born out of the cultural mystique of martial arts and because that is what they are led to believe by instructors whom they mistakenly place faith in out of trust and respect.

    A TKD BB who can only hang in TKD sparring against other unskilled fighters is another issue too. And very common.
     
  19. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    That's due to your diligence and integrity as an instructor. That's not a common occurrence in many arts let alone TKD. You know for a fact you are the exception to the general rule.

    And no we don't. But I don't believe those are as important as fundamental fighting ability at three ranges.

    I could suckerpunch, judge threats, and talk my way out of problems before I ever did hard training.
     
  20. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Easier to respond in the quote :)
     

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