What defines a Martial artist? (Taekwondo)

Ok this convinced me - you haven't learned how to apply Taekwondo. What you've learned are forms and theory; applying it is very different, and this is aligned with your realisation that "I would get my butt handed by a professional fighter, boxer, or wrestler".

You need to visit a traditional/military Taekwondo school led by at least a 5th (preferably 6th+) dan to see how you fare. Ask the coach to verify your rank... before you even consider making public videos disrepecting Taekwondo, this is the least you should do IMO.

 

How exactly would the training be conducted?

Regarding pro MMA fighters: they would kick most people's arses regardless if style in a sqaure go.

 

Given the state of TKD in the US and other places, and the fact that a whole bunch of them are sportive, is that even something that is reasonably possible?

I mean, even the schools that do the other, more traditional aspects of the art, they still spar in the sport rules. Looking at the local KKW school they do forms, and one steps, and hosinsul, and when they spar, its sport rules. So that means the only time they will throw a punch, that is not at the air, is during the step sparring. That's not a whole lot of repetition. During the class I took, they threw about 15 total punch's in practice the entire 1.5 hour class, with 6 of them happening during one steps.(I kept track in my head)

 

My school was led by a korean man who was a member of the korea national team who is a 7th degree blackbelt authorized by kukkiwon.

 

He wasn't a "National Champion" . I think I have seen a thousand TKD school advertisements where the head was a Korean National Champion.

 

To be fair he doesn't say that in the text you quoted.

Earl can I ask what you consider to be a solid example of a TKD training structure that would address the criticisms in the OPs video?

 

My error. Forgot the "?". So it should have read "He wasn't a National Champion? " My point got lost. Lots of resumes say lots of stuff.

I only watched part of the video so I will address what I thought were biggest issues.

1. Lack of Live training.
2. Lack of hand strikes to the head resulting in lack of adequate prep for this offense and defense.
3. Lack of Grappling.

Lack of Live training can be solved with ... More live training... Have drills / sparring where non sport rules don't apply. Only rules needed t insure safety. We what I call "Combat 1 Step" . No traditional paramaters. Person stands in center of a circle of people who attack, one at a time. This is done with both striking and grappling attacks. Defender must defend / evade and counter to a finish. Instructor reviews and critiques. Basic consideration is practicality and efficiency.

Grappling knowledge is needed. My first MA was Judo in 1970, segwaying into TKD in 1972. In 1973 or so a Judo / JJ guy came to improve his strikes. When we saw what he could do if he got a hold of us we sucked all the knowledge we could off him. You don't need to know how to out grapple him. Just how to address what they do, so you can do what you do best. At one Gracie seminar we had a drill where you attempted to grab the guy and he tried a palm to the head to simulate a strike. Good drill.

FWIW the TKD org I belong to has a Ho Sin Sul currculum which includes a large grappling component and now a ground defense course as well.

 

Thanks.

I personally think that TKD has everything in it to be a very effective fighting discipline. I think the training paradigm is what's important.

When you conduct circle training is the uke (don't know the Korean term sorry!) Trying to actually hit and successfully adabt to tori's defence/actions? Because a lot of that sort of training ends up being very mannered and fanciful in my experience... I did it in the WJJF and have seen JJ groups such as Jitsu foundation do similar...

https://youtu.be/eMZ806oOyYA


https://youtu.be/GdQrcmkxct8

In my opinion both of those clips are demonstrative of a self deluding method of training and testing. I don't know how you feel about them.

I personally feel that a sparring process geared towards a full contact competive format similar to K1 rules kickboxing or Sanda would be really beneficial if introduced as pervasively as semi contact and/or olympic sparring is currently. I don't particularly like the WTF sparring format but will say it demands skill and athleticism which has obvious carry over into both augmentative training and fighting in general.


Regarding examples of TKD training:

How does your group address the discrepancy between techniques as executed in pattern and as executed 'live' if you in fact agree there is one?

How do you feel about one step?

How do you feel about forms?

Do you think a training model based on pattern , complient application of technique, one step and semi contact limited rules sparring is adequate for self defence training?

What are your primary training practices and how much time do you dedicate to each?

 

I want to go over alot of things you guys are saying and I feel like there has been a great misunderstanding in what I'm trying to say about my martial arts experience. I don't hate Taekwondo, its just not what I wanted out of it due to my experience in other things. I know you may think I'm trying to pimp my youtube channel, I'm really trying to have people understand my past and why I have changed and opened my mind. Now, I have a new video, and if you don't want to watch it, that's totally okay, but I cover everything that defends where I'm comming from and why I don't absolutely disrespect tradtional martial arts but actually can acknowledge it as part of my martial arts path.

Video removed. Stop cross posting now. You have been warned about constantly pimping your youtube channel. At least have the common decency not to post the same thing on multiple threads and actually engage in discussion rather than expect people to listen to hours of your videos.

 

<<<

Patterns, Sparring, (Free and Pre Arranged) Sparring Drills, Fundamental techniques, Board Breaking, Ho Sin Sul / Ju Jitsu (Throwing, Falling, Joint Locks, Stand up and ground grappling) weapon defense - primarily knife and handgun.

I'd have to give some thought as to time breakdown.

 

So, if you're determined to be an internet personality and to save us from ourselves, here's something you're really going to need to internalize: The job that you're taking on is to make yourself understood clearly. If a good number of people are, in your words, misunderstanding your point, then the problem is with YOUR presentation of your views. I understand the temptation of instant gratification. Video yourself in what looked like a convenience store, post it up, and watch the views start rolling in. But if what you're saying is being consistently misinterpreted, then you're saying it poorly. And you probably want to think long and hard about that.

 

To reiterate (from my post #9) I would rather someone post in words and get responses (such as a forum or blog)

I also stated that TKD in the late 60'-70's was much different. They were not "kid friendly, evening childcare centers"

Ranks were not "given", and people did not advance only on forms they knew. Sparring was hard with throws and take-downs with occasional bruising and/or sanguinary (people past 19).

 

That sounds very comprehensive.

Do you spar and do randori every session? If so what rule set?

As an example at my MMA gym we train as follows:

Thai:
drills: (back and forth drill involving footwork parrying checking head movement and strike combinations. Shots low power but at target and will hit if not dealt with). Padwork: rounds technique combinations
Sparring: flow and hard contact depending on day 5min rounds.

Grappling:
Drilling: i-method drilling
Sparring: isolation sparring and full rolling for rounds.

MMA: as above with strikes or wrestling drills leading into wrestling sparring (with or without strikes).

Each class is dived by discipline and the split is 1/3 or 1/2 each section. Every session is run like this.

All training is resistant other than the introduction stage of technique in MMA or grappling which is usually the first 5mins. The drills in Thai are resistent to the extent that participants move freely and there is timing energy and motion involved.

Obviously the goal of training is competition orientated but could be easily adapted to a self defence context.

 

We do not spar every session.

 

Martial man:

Exactly what was contained in your TKD training? How was it conducted?

 

The two guys in matutor's video essentially described how they felt their TKD training failed to deliver on its intended goals (self defence and fight preparedness) by virtue of a focus on poor training methods such as pattern and step sparring, a technical methodology that doesn't translate entirely to real world physical violence (hand to hip chambered blocking for example) an aversion to cross training, a lack of resistance in training and a sparring and competition format whose ruleset is permissive enough to render it more reflective of an actual unarmed one on one duel/fight. Plenty of people have hung them from the rafters for it, calling it sytle bashing and dissing and yet nobody has yet presented a case for this type of training being the exception or a cogent argument for why they are wrong or how their school does it better.

From personal experience I can say TKD suffers from a huge McDojo problem and a pervasive issue in its training.

I've sparred blackbelts I've trained in classes and my take is that the good practitioners either cross train outside their school, are great athletes who utilize a limited range of skills well or some mixture of both of those things. The rest are deluded if they think they can fight. Much like CKD or any other art people are comfortable to find fault with.

 

I to would like some reasoning behind the reliance on step style sparring. I just don't see how that prepares anyone for anything? Especially when you listen to pure karate guys, saying there are not blocks, and those movements are everything but blocks. YET the step sparring has them using them as blocks. With unrealistic distance, stance, ect.

I mean, look at the videos I posted. At no point did they actually have a realistic distance. The attacker would never have touched the defender.

I also agree, why is the hand on hip chamber thing still done? If the point of it is to grab and pull something, then each and every thing that features that, should have feature grabbing and pulling. If the partner exercises don't contain it, then why chamber it there? Again if it is meant to grab and pull something, then that is what should be happening. A student should not have to use their imagination for this stuff. It should all be done with a partner, in true time.(as my HEMA fencing instructor calls it)

They are the arts of mars. They should be practiced as such. If they don't prepare you to fight, then they are not a art of mars.

 

Mitch, what about step sparring?

Secondly, sparring might not be self defense, but it is seriously important to it. I mean, if you cant apply any technique from your style, under pressure with a resistant partner, how can you ever hope to apply it on a mugger, or that drunk idiot at the bar, or any other real life instigator?

Honestly, its the same question that gets asked in the Ninjutsu forum.