What defines a Martial artist? (Taekwondo)

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by matutor, Oct 19, 2015.

  1. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Yes but also that you should be honest in evaluating (as well as testing and addressing, if you feel the need) the limitations of your sport and nonsport practice if your aim is to train what you do as a functional martial art.

    ie if you train MMA but want to develop weapon defence then test your abilities against knife attacks in training and attend seminars etc maybe cross train in some FMA. If you train TKD in a pattern, step sparring, breaking and semi contact limited sparring paradigm within your own school and want to be able to fight effectively on your feet then take a look at what might be missing from your training structure and either cross train or find some other way to test and develop what you do.

    just be an honest and self reflective practitioner.
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2015
  2. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    But that's the problem. People wont "be honest with themselves" because "ignorance is bliss"
  3. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    I have taken TKD very seriously and taken it with me to muay Thai and MMA and also the odd street fight and ,honestly, it's not so much the content, although that can be lacking,it's the training methods. I'm talking Chang Hon style
    I believe the guys who take sparring seriously are the most adept.
    It holds its own in any semi contact above waist kicking competitive arena easily. It's adaptable for full contact, above waist arenas too as most serious sparrers develop ok to good hands through experience and boxing influence.
    Start adding low kicking, kick catching, clinching, knees and it starts to fall apart and needs adapting. There's no point then looking anywhere else but to the Thais, like it or not.
    Even though knees ,for example ,are found somewhere
    in TKD....the training and fundamentals that make them work in any ever changing full contact situation are not.

    I believe when faced with this truth most either accept and change styles ,or cross train openly.....or others look to these full contact,proven styles and dabble but then say that it's been there all along in TKD and pass it off as TKD applications or something then carry on with the poor training methods along with the good ones.

    It's the secret......find a technique in a pattern that resembles something in some way to something else that actually works and say it was that all along. Simple.

    To be fair, it's not always done deliberately. The intention can be good and as humans we don't want to be wrong or have wasted our time so it's easy to fall into these traps.
  4. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Why can it adapt to one but not the other?

  5. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Ask away. For people who train for Olympic style TKD sparring it's utterly irrelevant. Why doesn't your golf work in cricket? is an equally valid question.

    Ask away. For people who train for ITF style TKD sparring it's utterly irrelevant. Why doesn't your golf work in cricket? is an equally valid question.

    Ask away. For people who train for pattern competition it's utterly irrelevant. Why doesn't your rally car win trans atlantic flight races? is an equally valid question.

    Ask away. For people who train any TKD because they happen to like the multifaceted nature of the art it's utterly irrelevant. Why doesn't your golf work involve cricket and baseball? is an equally valid question.

    Ask away. For people who train solely TKD because they want to train in MMA it's a bad idea.

    Unless you want to go back to the beginning and define what a martial art is again, because we've already established that there are lots of different definitions :)

  6. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    You forgot to mention the people who want to train TKD because the instructor told them its for self defense, and yet they do all of the above. That is a overwhelming problem with all flavors of TKD in the states. They all say we do self defense you can use! yet they all do all of the above..
  7. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Job done :)
  8. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Agree. Yes. Or it can be that there is a degree of ego or ignorance

    Per the above. The problem is that the consumer should take it upon them selves to be informed and perform research (Caveat emptor)
  9. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Dude. I'm disappointed. Please re-,read my very carefully worded post which you quoted. You aren't crediting me with very much intelligence by emphasising the sport to sport comparison as being redundant if sport is your focus likewise patterns etc. I already stated as such. I feel like you ignored everything I wrote. Not that I demand your attention but it's be nice if you're gonna take the time to reply :p
  10. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    It's not that, and I certainly didn't mean to insult your intelligence, I think your content is great. Sincere apologies if I cam across that way :)

    But you are still going back to the MMA point, and we've already answered it. Change the training methodology and it's fine :)

  11. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member


    Sorry, in lu of your other lengthy video, I did not bother to view your recent one. You caused me to have this thought process: In my subconscious mind, all I kept thinking: "How long is this one going to be?" "That's weird, he is filming this one in his car." "Opps, (as I am thinking), what did he just say?" "Time to rewind - Blah-it isn't worth it". I have reached a point, that once I view see any of your videos, I give it seconds to play, then I go through the same thought process all over

    I do not like a one sided discussion video where someone is staring in the camera and just talking. Professional documentaries are different

    My suggestion:

    Post here, in a few words your points

    For example:

    I studied ___ for ____years in ______

    I reached a level of______

    I now study ___________

    I like ______from my previous art

    I did not like ______from my previous art

    I like ______from my recent art

    I do not like ______from my recent art

    On another note:

    Do not bash a art or style. There are many people here that practice their arts for their reason, and most have a clear understanding the reality and limitations. Every martial art has to look upon its reality and limitations. Not one art is the best.

    A martial art is not ultimately defined as a fighting skill. A fighting skill is not ultimately defined as self defense

    Mod-Please place links of Self Defense threads
  12. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Keep in mind that sometimes an honest and self reflective practitioner just wants what is being offered. I've met (and taught) a lot of TKDists who joined the class for fun, exercise, a chance to compete in a relatively safe format (that still allows full contact, albeit to limited targets), and a little bit of self defense thrown in. For some students, when offered more comprehensive self-defense, they don't come... they are just not into it for that.

    So long as the training matches the students' expectation and the claims of the instructors, I think it's good.
  13. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Im sorry but no, not job done. Your again putting all the onus on the student. How is it the students fault when they are TOLD by the teacher the advertisements they use, that t hey are for self defense.

    Yes of course, testing in a open environment is important, but honest teachers, are even more important. When MOST of them in the states, all the say the same thing, that they are teaching for self defense, yet only do Olympic or ITF sparring and loads of kata, then they are being dishonest.

    Its especially bad for newbs to martial arts, who don't know better.

    This buyer beware attitude doesn't fly in any other industry, why should it in martial arts. If the instructors are claiming self defense, yet are doing step sparring and patterns and OLY sparring all the time, then they are deliberately misleading potential students.

    Edit. Mitch you mention change the training methodology and its fine. PLease name one School stateside that actually trains TKD to be functional for a wide variety of fight/sd/unarmed situations? If competitive sparring is the only thing that truly matters to the various TKD orgs, why did they bother to keep the patterns, the step sparring and self defense stuff? If they only want people that can competitively spar, why keep the Karate trappings? Why not simply drop it all and do the sparring only drills and training. Then their would be actual honesty in training and from the instructors.
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2015
  14. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Yeah, but there are teachers out there that "actually think" they are teaching the proper stuff
  15. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Valued Member

    If we are talking about children, it's tough to blame them. The blame is on the parents. There is plenty of MA stuff around.

    There is no reason for a student not to check stuff out but typically they pick the closest or cheapest place.

    Then there are those who allow themselves to be brainwashed. Over the years I have hosted competitions and seminars and spread the word however I could. It was not uncommon to receive a tepid inquiry from someone and if it was a competition I invited them to come watch to see if they thought we had our heads screwed on straight and perhaps they would care to compete next year. . When I didn't recall seeing them i would reach out afterword and ask if they had stopped by. It was not unusual to hear them say "My Instructor said i could not come watch.".

    Other times I would tell an instructor about something and later run into a student of theirs and ask "Did your instructor let you know about this seminar" and they would say "No".

    There is a problem in the MA industry of having X years of experience or having the same experienxe for X years.
  16. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Everything you just said is exactly what I've been very careful to already acknowledge.
  17. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    I've already said that Instructor integrity is important.

    Frankly I don't know what clubs 40 miles away are teaching, never mind in the US, why should I?

  18. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    It's all good dude I'm not offended and was only being playful. I'm just very aware of having my statements pushed into the 'MMA or it sucks' cam and being depicted as not understanding of the fact that people dont always care about either optimal fight utility or anything outside the practice of their art itself (whatever they choose) What I'm actually saying is that although all combat sports are an abstraction of real world violence it really pays to consider how what you learn would hold up under more permissive open rulesets if 'fighting' ability is central to your personal practice. If it isn't it isn't. If it is then how you act on that according to your taste is up to you obviously but the awareness is key. Guys that train JKD for function don't train specifically for MMA or Full contact kickboxing or events like naga. But they have the skills to compete if they wanted to.
  19. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    MMA does not equal optimal fight utility, if by that you mean self defence :)

    Guys that train JKD will have the skills if they adopt the appropriate training methodology :) As will TKD or any other TMA TLAs :D

  20. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Sure they will, but please name one TMA outside of a few people on this board, that are training with appropriate methodology for generalized unarmed conflicts.

Share This Page