What Can You Add/Remove & Still Call It TKD?

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by Van Zandt, Jul 14, 2009.

  1. Gizmo

    Gizmo Valued Member

    The beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I for one don't usually find the WTF competitions entertaining at all, they're plain boring to watch for me...
     
  2. Theforgotten

    Theforgotten Drifting Aimlessly

    Well, it is a matter of opinion, and you are entitled to yours, so I respect the fact that MMA is not your cup of tea. I don't agree with your assessment that the skill is lacking, but I respect your opinions nonetheless. I have a friend who told me that he didn't spend 20 years training just so that he could get into a ring and entertain people, and I must say that I agree with him. If this is what you are getting at when you say that simply training TKD to get into a ring is soulless, then I can certainly see what you are saying. I think that the key thing to remember is that the soul of what someone is doing is going to vary depending on the reason why they are doing it in the first place. If you are only training for competition, then sparring and drills are going to be the soul of what you are doing. If you are training more for spiritual/cultural reasons, then the culture, and yes - the forms, are going to be the soul of what you are doing. So, while something may appear soulless to you, you must remember that it is only your own opinion and not objective fact. You must also remember to respect the soul of what others are doing whether it be competition in a ring or what have you. It may be soulless to you, but it has plenty of soul to others and it is just as legit as what you are doing. Just because something is different or has different aims from what you are doing doesn't mean that it is inherently flawed or somehow defective, it is just different from what you do or would like to do. Always remember respect and openmindedness, Youngman :cool:.
     
  3. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Patterns and sparring are just different accents of the same language.
     
  4. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    ............and how we got on to slagging off MMA here is anyone's guess:bang:
     
  5. TKDTraditional

    TKDTraditional Valued Member

    I'm finally jumping in on this thread. We all obviously have many different perspectives on TKD and preferences about what we want to get out of it. Different schools will focus on different aspects of TaeKwon-Do and still use the name. I believe prospective students need to "shop around" and find a school that meets their personal expectations and wants. Some what to spar, some what fitness, some just want a Black Belt with the least effort or inconvenience. All of these are available under the term "Taekwondo".

    The widest difference I see is between spirited teens who only want to spar and learn flashy kicks and more aged adults who learn to appreciate the skill and personal discipline of patterns. I would never remove patterns from TKD. Even teens need exposure to them as they may mature to appreciate them and thereby make TKD a live-long pursuit.

    Step sparring is an interesting area. I really hate the way step sparring is generally taught. Some organizations focus more on the protocol of step sparring than the skills. I consider step sparring the first arena where students face direct attacks and the feel of an actual block. Basics become applications. Too often attacks are thrown wide or too far from any practical target. There's no sense of timing between attacker and defender. Also, many schools focus on memorizing each drill, "What #4 again?" and forgetting the skills being practiced. Personally, I like step sparring drills that build on patterns. Green belt step sparring should reflect Green belt patterns, etc.

    How often do White belts free spar without learning their pattern or step sparring for their rank? Free sparring is fun and is probably responsible for maintaining student attendance but skills are skills and a variety of drills is necessary.
     
  6. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    That's pretty much why I did away with step-sparring. The I-Method makes it meaningless.
     
  7. TKDTraditional

    TKDTraditional Valued Member

    I'm sorry, what's the "I-Method"?
     
  8. MadMonk108

    MadMonk108 JKD/Kali Instructor

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-g6JTQDWNc"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-g6JTQDWNc[/ame]
     
  9. TKDTraditional

    TKDTraditional Valued Member

    Thanks for that video. I've seen that technique before.
    But what does that have to do with teaching step sparring?
    Step sparring is a "hands on" drill for blocking and counterattacking punches and/or kicks.
     
  10. blindgod

    blindgod Valued Member

    I'd say that step-sparring falls under the Introduction phase of I-Method, as it is, in my experience, practicing a technique or combination against an unresisting opponent. The difference is that this method is employed continuously in TKD step sparring whereas in I-Method, it would be done just long enough to acquaint a student with the particular technique before moving on to the Isolation phase.
     
  11. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    1st I think that it really depends on what you mean by TKD, as there are many styles of TKD & many ways to train thiose different styles. For me, one who has spent a lifetime doing original TKD I can say that I am very happy for what original TKD has done for me. It has given me SD skills, health & more. It is an Art form & also a sport. It is avehicle for social development. That being said, there are much better ways to train just SD if that is what someone is looking for. But for me & they way I embrace the Chang Hon or ITF system is whole, the entire system. if done correctly is will help build very good SD capability, but agin there are better ways to do that, if that is your sole purpose.
    So I would not take out the patterns, as they are Gen Choi's signature & an important part of his Art form.
    Now I would not take out step sparring at all. I think the ITF step sparring is so different from the other TKD groups & the karate way that it comes from. Sadly not enough ITF TKD people emphasize or do the step sparring the right way, that Gen Choi devised it. If done correctly, as stated by Gen Choi, it conforms closely to the 1st 2 parts of the I Method & is the start of the integration phase, the 3rd & last part of the I Method.
     
  12. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    The ITF step sparring which moved away from the karate style way of doing it in the early 1970s, actually takes it to the 1st 2 phases & aprtially into the 3rd phase as stated above. I think the way most people do step sparring it probably could be eliminated, as it often can even be counter productive from a SD standpoint imo
     
  13. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    This is a real problem in some organisations. I remember entire lessons spent focusing on which foot goes back when preparing to attack, or whether to say "ready to attack" or just kihap, instead of how to successfully apply the techniques.

    I remember one time I was scolded at a pre-grading because we were doing one-step sparring (in which the chief instructor had said "anything goes") because I decided to incorporate some Kali empty hand techniques and MT-style clinching. Apparently it wasn't "Korean enough" :confused:

    Supporters of step sparring believe it teaches timing, distance, and a host of other fighting attributes. Please. The way it is commonly taught, in its traditional rigid format, is about as effective at teaching fighting attributes as is picking fluff from your belly button :rolleyes:
     
  14. Theforgotten

    Theforgotten Drifting Aimlessly

    How about taking out the Nationalism and heavy propaganda such as the 2000 year history and the erroneous connection to Taekyun, which the Korean Taekyun Research Association has come out and said is completely bogus? Can we still call it TKD without all of the BS?
     
  15. Ironized

    Ironized Valued Member

    i think the point of step sparring, is more to view openings and learn what strikes wll get into that opening.

    this can be hard to grasp at the start, and thus it is a skill that is taught slowly...
     
  16. TheMadhoose

    TheMadhoose Carpe Jugulum

    Step Sparring does teach timing as you need to time your block with the attack regardless of speed

    it teaches distance as you need to be aware of how near or far from a person you need to be to use a particular block

    the only fighting attribute i think it realy teaches is forearm conditioning.

    Master Dew of the TAGB told me that when he was originaly taught Taekwon-Do in malaysia you werent allowed to free spar until blue belt, after you had mastered set sparring only then were you were deemed ready to be able to free spar.
     
  17. Ironized

    Ironized Valued Member

    it can also teach you what openings look like, and what techniques will work.
     
  18. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    But the timing and distance it teaches aren't exactly realistic, are they? In my experience, no ITF syllabus teaches step sparring techniques from the clinching range. And in a fight - either in sparring or self defence - no opponent is going to come at you as slow as is taught by most major associations.

    I don't think it even does that.

    With all due respect to the man, Mike Dew isn't exactly the most technically proficient member of the TAGB committee. I wonder if this had something to do with his late start in free sparring?

    In my experience, the sooner you start someone sparring the sooner they become "good".

    In what situation, exactly? You see, that's my point - step sparring doesn't imitate any fighting scenario, whether you're talking about free sparring or self-defence.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2009
  19. TheMadhoose

    TheMadhoose Carpe Jugulum

    Maybe not in 3 step sparring but when you progress to semi free, 2 step & 1 step the timing and distance progressively becomes more realistic. Especialy in ITF 1 step (well UKTA anyways) you can be attacked by any hand technique at any height range. And since clinching isnt a typical Taekwon-Do tactic in competition why would it be taught in 3 step which is a very basic learning tool

    Well i do


    Not interested in his proficiency. That is how Taekwon-Do was taught when he began his training in Malaysia


    basic 3 step no
     
  20. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    So what is your point? I thought you were citing Mike Dew as an example of a technically proficient Taekwondoist who didn't free spar until late on in the coloured belt syllabus. I don't rate his ability all that highly, hence my previous post. And because that's how they do it in Malaysia doesn't strengthen step sparring's cause at all.
     

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