What Can You Add/Remove & Still Call It TKD?

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by Van Zandt, Jul 14, 2009.

  1. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Well, I'm still waiting for your rebuttal on how double and triple round kicks, cut kicks, and the ITF and WTF rule set are unique to TKD.

    But please do tell me what is going to stop me from using the name TKD to describe my classes? There is nothing to stop anyone from using the name to describe anything - even dance classes!

    That, my friend, is the essence of TKD - "Taekwondo" is a name, with various spellings and infinite interpretations, and every single one is as valid and "right" as the next. :cool:
     
  2. YoungMan68

    YoungMan68 Valued Member

    Keep in mind, patterns of one form or another have existed in Taekwondo from the beginning, even before unification. The Founders obviously felt they were important enough to have.
    Taekwondo is a martial art. It is not just self defense, not just sparring, not just drills. It is a holistic program for all-around physical, mental, spiritual, and social well being. Forms is a part of that, as much as anything else in Taekwondo. You take that away, and it loses something indelible.
     
  3. BatemanTKD

    BatemanTKD Valued Member

    Which is why as stupid as it sounds, the founders should have copyrighted TKD as a whole, including the original pattern set, so that people like you cannot change whatever you want without their permission to suit you and still claim it is something that it is not and make it into something they never wanted it to be or would agree with.
     
  4. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    Well, they didn't, so never mind eh? :D

    Plus you seem to forget I'll still be teaching TKD - just certain aspects of it.
     
  5. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Ok. there really was 1 TKD in the begining, but the earlier you trace that begining back, you will see that they were all doing karate. From 1955, gen Choi & his followers were really the few that were even using the name TKD. At that time they (him & his soldiers) started to develop a syllabus. At 1st it was limited to the forms, which while new were very much karate based & karate like. Kicks & flying kicks were added in over time & things started to look more Korean, but off course still resembled its karate roots. Remember all MAs share things in common, but TKD is karate based.
    The other 2 groups, the WTF & independents were also doing karate early on. At some point, some of them adopted Gen Choi's forms. However the WTF which wasn't even formed till 1973, didn't even use the name TKD till 1965. They used Tae Su Doo as the compromise umbrella term. The independents used all sorts of names. Once the KTA chnaged back to TKD, under Gen Choi's leadership, the name finally started to take hold. However they (WTF & Inds) did not accept Gen Choi's growing syllabus. The WTFers consolidated under their new rules, 1st used in 1963 on a national level, but their base was still karate. The Inds moved forward in their own way, with people like GM Kim Soo still calling it Korean karate. Many Inds simply adopted the name TKD after the ITF & later the WTF made it so popular. However they were still doing what they always did, karate based KMA.
     
  6. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    There really wasn't ever any real unification. In 1965 the name TKD was more widely accepted, but their was no unification of technique, but rather the adoption of a new unique set of sports rules. Not all united under this. GM Hwang Kee of the MDK stayed out & made Su Bak Do. Gen Choi didn't unite either, as he tried to get them to use his system, but they were only interested in the name, or rather he forced it on them as it passed by 1 vote.

    Later on as sport TKD became popular, colleges & universities in SK started offering TKD programs. These unified around the sport version as well. TKD in SK is a sport. KMAs are governed by a different MAs org. Abroad, those that do something they call TKD, may have the sports match rules in common or BB certs, but little else. They may not even spell Taekwon-Do right or the same way!
     
  7. Theforgotten

    Theforgotten Drifting Aimlessly

    How would they copyright the original forms when they came from another style to begin with? How would you copyright something that you basically took from another source? Wouldn't taking something from another source then claiming that its yours, not giving any credit to the original source, and then copyrighting it (or trying to, anyways) be cultural plagarism? I find it so ironic that a Korean style is suggested for copyright when it is Korean styles that are constantly taking things from other styles, claiming that they are the ones who invented it, and not giving credit where credit is due (a.k.a. plagarism). Perhaps it is the non-Korean styles who need copyright protection against the KMA?
     
  8. TKDstudent

    TKDstudent Valued Member

    Theforgotten makes some good points that many wish would be forgotten & others wish more would forget or just not know .
     
  9. blindgod

    blindgod Valued Member

    I posted a thread in the General section about wanting to start a TKD club at a local college but using a different training method from the normal ones I've encountered at TKD clubs and schools. However, since it's the General forum, I phrased my points and questions in a general way and would like to be more specific here in the hopes of getting thoughts and feedback.

    Twice in my martial arts career I’ve seen my skill and the skill of those around me improve tremendously in a short amount of time. The first was under a Korean TKD instructor on the east coast of the US. The second was under an American BJJ instructor on the west coast of the US. However, the training method used during those times was the same. It was based on simple techniques and combinations in dynamic partner drills. I later practiced with boxing and kickboxing students who practiced these methods exclusively. I was struck by how much faster students gained skill than in the TKD classes I was used to.

    I’ve studied at five different, completely unconnected TKD schools (two on the east coast, three on the west coast) and have found the training methods employed to be largely the same. Classes consist of line drills, static one-steps, pad drills (sometimes static, sometimes moving), forms, and sparring (using a variety of rules and levels of contact). Of these, line drills took up the most time.

    I’ve tried to explain the training method that I saw produce the impressive results that I mentioned earlier. Then I came across Matt Thornton’s blog description of I-Method training, and realized that the I-Method is almost identical to what I had experienced. And it’s this training method that I want to emphasize. Actually, I think by focusing on it exclusively, it would be the most beneficial for the club members who will have a very limited time per week to practice.

    This would mean that other training methods would have to fall a bit by the wayside, and one of these would be the practice of forms. And I can already imagine objections that without forms, what we’d be practicing wouldn’t be TKD. However, all the techniques would be the same as I’ve learned in TKD classes; only the training method would be different.

    So I’m curious what you think. Is TKD without forms still TKD?
     
  10. Theforgotten

    Theforgotten Drifting Aimlessly

    It depends on how you define "TKD", as there are so many variations out there that it will make your head spin. I say yes, adding another variation certainly can't hurt, and by focusing on effectiveness, you are actually moving back toward the style's roots.
     
  11. Van Zandt

    Van Zandt Mr. High Kick

    I believe so. And I think the more useless aspects of the curriculum are dropped the better students will become.

    Unless dancing with a poltergeist is what you train for :woo:
     
  12. Liam Cullen

    Liam Cullen Valued Member

    Good luck with your club, it sounds to me as if you're moving in the right direction.
    I see no problem with removing forms from the class. I know people see them as pivotal to marking TKD as TKD, rather than kickboxing; however I see them as being a method to teach students the movements of the art. If they're learning these movements through another method such as live drilling then I see no problem.
     
  13. YoungMan68

    YoungMan68 Valued Member

    Tae Kwon Do without forms becomes as soulless as MMA or kickboxing. It simply becomes a means for two people to score on each other.
     
  14. Moi

    Moi Warriors live forever x

    Kickboxing and MMA have lots of soul. What they miss out on is B/S:bang:
     
  15. Ironized

    Ironized Valued Member

    ill dissagree. the focus on fundamentals and correct technique is what gives it soul to me...
     
  16. blindgod

    blindgod Valued Member

    As I see it, forms are a means to an end. If that same end can be reached another way with better results, why still use the less effective method when time is limited?
     
  17. Liam Cullen

    Liam Cullen Valued Member

    Guys like Machida must really scare you and your tiny little mind.
     
  18. Theforgotten

    Theforgotten Drifting Aimlessly

    MMA and kickboxing have plenty of soul, it's just different from ye not-so-olde TKD soul. Also, note the irony of a heavily pro-WTF guy writing something off as just being "simply a means for two people to score on each other".
     
  19. Theforgotten

    Theforgotten Drifting Aimlessly

    That sounds like vintage Youngman68 right there. It is par for the course with him :cool:.
     
  20. YoungMan68

    YoungMan68 Valued Member

    On the contrary, guys like Machida and other MMA types don't scare me because most of those guys are just boxers or grapplers who learn enough kicking to get into a ring. Seriously, I've tried to watch MMA fights and can't do it. Most of the technique is so bad as to be either laughable or simply boring to watch. The kicking is atrocious, and I really don't want to watch 15 minutes of one guy trying to make another guy tapout. At least WTF free fighting is entertaining. But simply training in Taekwondo to get into a ring is soulless as well. I did find Cung Le fun to watch because he, at least, was entertaining to watch and talented.
     

Share This Page