What can Bujinkan offer me at my stage of life.

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Botta Dritta, Sep 1, 2015.

  1. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    No. He's just that good that you never see him.
     
  2. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    So that would be...


    ...#4, #5 and #7.

    A ninjutsu hat trick.
     
  3. peterc8455

    peterc8455 Valued Member

    That was pretty bad and he needs to get himself to a judo class. Seriously they will teach him how to properly throw someone.

    You would think he would blow us away with incredible movement and great body dynamics; yet we are continually underwhelmed.

    This is what happens when you don't train with any resistance.
     
  4. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    And yet, 15th Dan, presumably graded by Hatsumi himself.
     
  5. peterc8455

    peterc8455 Valued Member

    Yes and if I'm not mistaken he was also recommended by his peers.
     
  6. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    not to pile on, because i'm going to be accused of being a hater. but...

    i think it says something that the only way to get good instruction, according to (presumably) high ranking practitioners within the organization, is to go to japan--only, japan.

    think about judo and the propagation of the art outside of japan; brazilian jiu jitsu is another example. heck, you could probably make the case that a student could learn quite a bit of aikido in nyc and chicago, not just in japan. i've actually trained in new york and was able to learn from quite high-ranking members of the u.s. aikido federation. heck, i struck up casual conversation with donovan waite while training in nyc, and then he proceeded to show me the finer points of ukemi. i was, and am, a 6th kyu, who only paid a seminar fee. lol

    i really find it hard to believe though. surely, there are people somewhere that understand this art that can be sought out? i've been watching mark roemke's videos online quite a bit and he seems to be of high quality. and, he presumably trains and has trained with hatsumi. surely, he has to be worth seeking out?
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2015
  7. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Roemke

    Seriously?
     
  8. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    i don't know, you tell me. looks better than the 15 dan from before.

    is there really no one outside of japan?
     
  9. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    MLM works by recruiting others.......:evil:
     
  10. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    Like Amway.
     
  11. benkyoka

    benkyoka one million times

    There are 50 to 100 people in the hombu dojo on any given night. Everyone 'trains' with Hatsumi now. And yet it seems there is a great deal of agreement that there are a large number of practitioners/teachers who are not very good. So it would seem that training with Hatsumi isn't enough to make someone good. What is the factor that makes someone good or not good? I tend to think it is this; correction.

    How many people have their movement consistently corrected by Hatsumi sensei or one of the shihan? I imagine that group of people is very small. If Soke or a shihan spends their time to correct you it means they want you to move correctly. If you heed to their correction you will be corrected even more. If you don't heed what they are trying to impart to you they will cease correcting you. In this way the teachers know who are teachable and who are not and spend their time and energy where it will be rewarded.

    Many people outside (and in) will say that the problem in the Bujinkan stem from lack of resistance, but resistance is another form of correction. If you're training with resistance improper technique will not work and you will have to correct yourself based on feedback you've gotten from the training and also what your teachers have to say.

    This is the age of the internet and cheap airfare. 'I train with Hatsumi' just doesn't cut it anymore.
     
  12. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    .....and then your check clears and "tadaaa!!! 15th Dan - go fleece other guillible gaijin
     
  13. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    It doesn't help that you can be 5th dan black belt in the time it would take you to get a blue belt in bjj either.
     
  14. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Guys, it's not really that difficult. If you want to make comparisons to other arts, you have to compare like situations. Good judo or bjj can be found around the world because of the way the arts were spread. Over 100 years ago, you had actual high ranking Japanese judoka teaching abroad. Not so with ninjutsu. Only Manaka sensei(I believe) has ever lived in the US, and then only for a brief time. The first person to really popularise the art was Stephen Hayes, and he was more or less an honorary black belt, not a master with decades of training and correction under the masters. Where would bjj be today if the first person who brought judo/jujutsu to Brazil was an American with poor skills and a lot of charisma?

    The arts can only be learned in Japan because that is where the masters are. The can only be learned deeply in Japan because there are several schools to learn(some like Kukishin and Takagi with very deep curricula), so comparing learning the Takamatsuden to learning bjj or judo is not only silly, but illogical. Try comparing it to learning judo, bjj, Kyokushin, iaido, Tae Kwon Do, JKD, and any other couple arts you want to include. That would get you closer to the technical reality, but again the caveat is that the only masters are in a small isolated area. So really, do you think that is so easy a task?

    Add to that the thousands of people who want to experience the arts, thus taking up space and time, making it harder to get the attention of the masters. I could go on, but the point should be obvious. If you want to compare apples and oranges, you shouldn't be discussing how the best ramen can be found in Sacramento.

    PS-that last sentence isn't supposed to make sense, just like the arguments people outside the art often make.

     
  15. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    So the whole structure of the Bujinkan with non japanese 15th dan masters and being able to teach after passing the sakki test (IIRC), dojo's outside of japan and all that is is one big con-job?
    Because while I can absolutely get that you can only learn an art where there are people qualified to teach it (that's obvious) and on occasion that means a few people in select locations (as used to be the case with any art with a small geographical location and 1 or 2 masters as a starting point), starting a martial arts organisation that doesn't reflect that fact would seem to be disingenuous at best and downright deceptive (ninjas right!) and dishonest at worse.
    If it truly is a fact that you can't really learn the arts in the Bujinkan outside the Japan then the Bujinkan as a global netwrok should be disbanded as "not fit for purpose".
    Wait until someone is sufficiently qualified to teach the arts and then get them to move outside of Japan (and so on and so on). Just like other arts did.
     
  16. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Who decides what that purpose is and whether or not it is fit for it? Only those with certain particular traditional rankings(not dan by the way) are actually qualified to pass on the ryu. The ryu that comprise the Takamatsuden have been preserved and passed down to the next generation, anything above and beyond that is rather inconsequential as far as that goes. In any traditional art, how many people do you think get full mastery and the right to pass on the art in any generation? How many inner disciples do you think any famous Chinese boxer had as compared to how many "students" they had who got to "train with them?"

    Those who want dan in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu can get it readily, and teach BBT as they like. To claim to be teaching from or to have mastery of Gyokko ryu or Shinden Fudo ryu however is a totally different conversation.

    The sufficiently qualified Japanese masters did do just like other arts and only go outside their own country to teach after they had reached a certain stage. Sadly, others had already paved the way for disaster by popularising the arts before the new seekers of ninjutsu had any clue what it entailed.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2015
  17. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I assume you include Hatsumi in that "others" category?
    He's the boss after all?
     
  18. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    The guy is a 15th Dan with the throwing ability of a Judo orange belt. He's teaching students how to throw when he can't do it himself and High Lord Hatsumi signed him off as a 15th Dan.

    Your 'Ninjutsu is really hard' argument doesn't stand up to scrutiny when senior graded practitioners have no discernible skill in any of the arts you chose to use as examples.
     
  19. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    I mean Hayes. Hatsumi sensei first came to the US in 1984(IIRC), by then it was already booming, and people were as clueless then and some still seem to be now.

    You are missing the point. Let me say it as plainly as possible.

    Dan ranks don't mean anything.

    He isn't ranked in the arts that comprise the Takamatsuden at all. He is not a senior graded practitioner, that would be Doron Navon and the other Japanese Shihan(all who have grades in the actual schools themselves). These people do have discernible skills in any of the arts that make up the Bujinkan(and some of the arts that comprise the Jinenkan and Genbukan).

    So now you see, you are talking about somebody with neither the skills nor the ranks in the actual arts. He has rank in BBT, and does a good job of BBT. That is not the same thing as Kukishin ryu or Koto ryu.
     
  20. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    So in your view, BBT is a scam?
     

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