What are the most important techniques in karate according to the kata?

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Moosey, Sep 12, 2011.

  1. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member



    Here you go again, trying to make two different concepts the same. They are not.
     
  2. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

    Ken Zen Ichi Nyo
     
  3. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Why aren't they the same? It directly relates to Moosey's original question. Why did Oyama tell all his students that Tensho kata was the most important kata of the Kyokushin system? Why has Kiyohide Shinjo of Uechi Ryu been quoted as saying Sanchin kata (of which their version is different from the Goju Ryu version) is the heart of Uechi Ryu? Why did Choki Motobu heavily favor Naihanchi? Heck, why did karate even come into being in the first place?
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2011
  4. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Hi Nekoashi

     
  5. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

    Let's take a step back and review our discussion:

    You assert that the signature move of an artist is their most important technique

    You assert that one should train their most important techniques most often

    You assert that a kata's most frequent moves is its most important



    These are inconsistent notions. The only logical conclusion to these assertions is that if you are an X stylist, then Y should be your signature move. We aren't built like this.

    Let's get back to the toe-tip kick for a moment. As I mentioned prior, I have studied this move since my first month as a white belt. I am ok at it and could use it, but only if I had heavy dress shoes on. For a while I studied under one of Zenko Heshiki's students. The man was built like a tank and could deliver the toe tip kick in a hundred different spots and paralyze you with fear and pain. I am also a fairly big guy, but no way will I ever be able to deliver the toe tip kick like my former sensei, very few people can. However, I am pretty good with a backfist. I can deliver it head on, backward, sideways, underhanded, etc. I have practiced it on a heavy bag, makiwara, other deshi, etc. I didn't choose the technique, the technique chose me. Both my former sensei and I are in the same system, doing the same kata and being trained from almost the same pool of teachers. I don't consider my backfist to to be my most important technique, only my signature one. This is true, even though it is also one of the least used techniques in our system of katas. The katas didn't provide me with this, my body and mind did for whatever reason. I don't need to and haven't trained it anymore than any other technique, it just naturally stands out.

    I didn't consciously chose to study Matsubayashi. It all happened by circumstance of will to study a martial art and opportunity to do so. I had no idea there were even different styles of karate back then. I just walked by a dojo every day and finally decided to go into it. Matsubayashi wasn't any more or less important to me at that moment in time. Just as Shoshin Nagamine didn't choose to study under those he did, it was more due to where he was born and who he was connected to. His style is the direct outgrowth of this.
     
  6. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Okay, read through this thread and had a couple days to think about things.

    I'm going to say that there is a difference between technique (singular) and techniques (plural). Kata consists of generic movements that demonstrate technique (singular). It is the application of kata (bunkai) that demonstrates techniques (plural).

    So to answer the OPs question, I will say that kata does NOT show what techniques are the most important, but rather kata shows what technique is important.

    Take a lunge punch performed in a kata, it is not the lunge punch technique that is important, it is technique demonstrated while performing the movements of a lunge punch in kata that are important. For example, if a movement starts with left foot forward cat stance and is followed by a step forward with the right foot and right hand lunge punch in the kata, this could represent the mechanics and timing of the falling step to add power to the strike because the weight stays on the right foot as the right foot steps forward into the right hand lunge punch. The left foot acts as a spring to divert the downward force from gravity into forward force.

    So kihon kata might have more lunge punches indicating the importance of the body mechanics and the fighting spirit involved in a lunge punch.

    A Professor of mine in Kajukenbo introduced me to the idea of "short forms" that exist in all movements. The short form is the break down of technique. The technique is broken down to the minimum from the initial reaction of technique or the flinch response to the execution of the technique. This is purely the principles of the technique. Everything else is add on.

    For something like the lunge punch, the initial reaction demonstrated is that of not telegraphing your intentions so the punch must come from where the hand lies and move directly through the target. This requires that the karateka cheats a bit and already is aligned properly to punch with the hands already in a position that is good to punch from. The fighting spirit to strike through the enemy must be there, no internal conflict... everything goes back to principles.

    There is a lot more to the details of technique (singular) than knowing how to do many different techniques (plural).
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2011
  7. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

    Whether Itosu broke down Channan kata or created it from techniques out of other kata is irrelevant. He created five kata, just as Shoshin Nagamine created his kata. Neither one of these kata is taught in my system with the idea that any particular move is more important than the next.

    As for Itosu's skill level, if it wasn't high no one would have chosen to study from him. Okinawa is a relatively small place and we are no different as human's today than we were then. Yes we have greater opportunity in some regards, but we also have less in others. With television, organized sports for our children and other activities (like the one you are looking at), how many of us really dedicate the same kind of time to hard training as Itosu and his students did? Perhaps some professional MMA fighters, but that is a very small group.

    P.S. We learn from most from our failures.
     
  8. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

     
  9. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

    Excellent ad to the discussion. It is similar to what Garywado said regarding principles. I might add that if a technique is in a kata, it is important. If a principle of movement, expressed through a series of movements in a kata exists, then it is important. Obviously I believe it is all important or it wouldn't be there and that some things you are just going to be naturally better at.
     
  10. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

    Not a very small pond at all. You must know that many Okinawans traveled all over Asia seeking out martial arts instruction. This is a large part of how Karate came to be and still goes on today.

    Last comment was in regard to your kata experiment.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2011
  11. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I do, as did Matsumura. However my point was that Itosu seemingly didn't and that the island itself is small. You really can't compare the opportunity and talent of that era with that of today.

    Given the book sales, and the enthusiasm of most of the reviews and the peer reviews from people like Rick Clark, Iain Abernethy and Bill Burgar - I don't regard creating (and writing) the Heian Flow System as a failure.;)

    Although it has taken me in a different direction to the one I originally envisioned, I don't regard the continued development of the HFS and my study of Empi, and the evolution of these into DART as a failure either. ;)
     
  12. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

    No doubt that there is opportunity to learn much more. However, my point was that we only have so many hours in a day. We have this discussion in the dojo all the time. Even keeping things as they have been, there is more curriculum in our system than time to train it and there is nothing in it at all we consider a waste of time. There are things we did back in the 1960s and 1970s we want to do again, but who has the time? Itosu may or may not have traveled, but many traveled to train under him.

    I misunderstood your comment, congratulations!
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2011
  13. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Actually, I never said that at all. The original question was asking what techniques are most prevalent in a system's kata. I have also never said you will automatically have a certain signature technique simply because you train a certain style.

    What I have said is that there is a reason why certain kata are taught in some systems but not in others. Why some techniques are taught in some systems but not others. Why some techniques are emphasized more in some systems than others. If it wasn't for this, we'd all be doing the same thing.

    What I have presented several times by now is exactly what you have just said in regards to your backfist and the student of Zenko Heshiki, yet you keep saying it's different. Through the training in your system you will find the techniques that work for you, and you can then structure your own training about how to maximize your strengths and minimize your weaknesses in a fighting situation.

    I think part of the problem might be your training goals compared to others. Some of us train for the journey, some of us train to stay alive. The differences between those two alone will automatically dictate certain ways of training.
     
  14. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

    That is what I have gotten from the posts you have put forth. Which one of those assertions do you disagree with? I am now thoroughly confused by you. On the one hand you say that the frequency of a technique in a kata determines its importance and then on the other you say you need to discover which techniques work best for you. Which is it?
     
  15. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    neko, those are not mutually exclusive. what is important in terms of the style does not necessarily be what is more to your preference or what gives you the most success personally.
     
  16. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

    What works best for you, may be what is most reflected in kata, but in no way must be. I still think Garywado hit the reason for the multiple reflection of techniques, in that they teach fundamental principles to the style that are used in multiple techniques. It is these principles that are important to the style.
     
  17. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    yup, and you might find that for yourself, something works better that does not coincide with them. there is no mutual exclusivity because they are in relation to different things (style vs. individual).
     
  18. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    As Fish said - both. Your kihon influences your actions, and your kihon comes from your kata. If your collection of kata is different from another system's, your kihon is going to be different. If your collection of kata is different, the techniques performed and how common they are in your kata also change. Since your kihon will be different from another system's kihon, your signature technique will be dramatically influenced by what is available to you. You can't consider a 540 spinning tornado kick to be your signature technique if your system never kicks above the waist.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2011
  19. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    The same principles are shared across all different styles of martial arts.

    Kata can demonstrate or emphasize some principles more than other principles but, IMHO, that is in the intentions of the one performing the kata. For example, one can stress more the breaks rather than throws, one can stress more the pressure point strikes over the power strikes, etc. This could be because one is emphasizing more the principle of always assuming there could be multiple attackers or an attacker could have a weapon; therefore, the technique would focus on speed of effect rather than on finishing off a single opponent.

    Kata is a lot like acting, placing yourself into a mindset and playing the role. People have equated kata to being like shadow boxing, only it is shadow boxing with an audience. Even if the audience is just yourself.

    When a set of movements that represent the generic movements of a technique exists in a kata, the test is in how well those movements are performed. The more times a certain set of movements comes up, the more times those movements are tested for flaws in execution.

    I can and have spent whole sessions teaching just one technique and at the end of the day, some students have brain overload and still can't get it right. Instead, I have them practice the kata that contains those movements. Why? Because it frees their mind from overthinking the movements and allows them to flow instead of jerk through the technique.

    One student I taught how to properly look side-to-side for self-defense. The next time he used the side to side look, it was just was not right because it was so unnatural for him. It is like I made things worse by teaching him the techniques to perceive things quicker in combat. I made him do the kata over and over again until he forgot about all the self-defense, the bunkai that I had taught him for the movements. Then maybe a month later, he got it. He was doing the side to side looking the way I wanted him to for self-defense and it was natural for him.

    Lesson for me was, don't over think the movements in kata. Kata is flow and principles, it is not a bunch of techniques. The techniques are in the bunkai.
     
  20. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

    I don't disagree with you here at all.
     

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