what are some techs for this ma?

Discussion in 'Silat' started by Cougar_v203, Mar 18, 2003.

  1. Cougar_v203

    Cougar_v203 4th surgery....Complete!

    like the topic header said :^)
  2. YODA

    YODA The Woofing Admin Supporter

    Well - the basics of the Silat system that we study (Mande Muda) include...

    Puter kepala

    Of cousre that's just a list of foreign words- I'm sure Mike (Pesilat) will be along to give you more detail :D
  3. Cougar_v203

    Cougar_v203 4th surgery....Complete!

    Where are you pesilat? you have exactly 99 seconds to get here before i drag you by the ear ;)
  4. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    Smooth hand off, Yoda. You're a relay racer aren't you? :D

    I actually spent the day today with my Kuntao Silat instructor, Willem "Uncle Bill" de Thouars. As such, you'll get no apologies from me for my slow response to this ;)

    I'd say that Yoda pretty much summed it up, though I'd add "kunci" to his list.

    So, here's my list:
    Puter kepala

    My background includes a fair amount of Mande Muda (same as Yoda's), and some Serak. And also influences from minor exposure to other things like some Mustika Kwitang and some of what Uncle refers to simply as "West Javanese" and "East Javanese" Silats.

    So, the explanation I'm about to give for the list of "techniques" above is my own personal extrapolation/interpretation from all these sources.

    First, the "techniques" listed above are really more "concepts" than "techniques." Each describes a family of techniques more than a single technique.

    On top of that list, you've got Luar and Dalam for many of the techniques.

    The terminology I use is from my primary instructor, Guru Ken Pannell and may or may not be used by other Silat systems.

    Luar - outside

    Dalam - inside

    Sapu - forward sweep may be done outside (sapu luar) or inside (sapu dalam)

    Biset - backward sweep (biset luar and biset dalam)

    Puter kepala - head turning throw

    Kenjit - compression

    Kunci - lock

    There is kenjit kaki which is leg compression. Kenjit siko which is elbow compression. These are deceptive translations, though, because they're not consistent. Kenjit kaki means that I'm compressing my opponent's leg. Kenjit siko means that I'm compressing my elbow. I'll elaborate more in a little bit. And, in fact, I may have to clean this up some and have it put into the "Styles" section of the magazine :D

    Then puter kepala and kenjit siko also have "reverse" methods. Then kenjit siko and and bisets also have "quarter" methods. And there's also a "leg in" kenjit siko.

    Kunci can be used to describe any type of lock. Technically, this word translates as "key" so I'm not sure why it's used for locks, but it sometimes is. It is also sometimes used to denote "keys" of an art. The language of Silat (at least here in America) can get kind of confusing. I think this comes from the fact that many of the early teachers didn't speak much English and/or didn't really have any kind of names for the techniques they used. So their American students came up with the names and I think they sometimes got the linguistics muddled. But that's purely conjecture on my part.

    OK. For sapu dalam and sapu luar, the easiest thing for you to do is to go watch the vid clips I have on my site at http://www.impactacademy.com/videos

    Note: these descriptions are very broken down and will sound like they aren't fluid but, trust me, at speed, they are very fluid.

    Bear in mind, also, that my descriptions are just one example (the most common example that I've seen) of how the concepts can be applied.

    There are also several standard entries that I could go into, but I'm not going to ;). Be creatively painful with your imagination of how I get to the beginning positions of each of these.

    Biset luar. I'm inside his arms and I've got his right wrist in my left hand and my right hand is across his chest and over his left shoulder. He's in a right lead and I'm in a right lead with my right leg behind his right leg. The right sides of our bodies are as closely meshed as possible so that, ideally, everything from my right armpit down to my right hip is flush against the right side of his body. I pivot 45 degrees to my left, moving him ahead of me (he pivots around my hip). As I continue to pivot left to 90 degrees, I drag my right leg diagonally back through his leg to take him down.

    Biset dalam. I've got his right wrist in my right hand and my left hand at his elbow with an armbar. We're facing the same way. He's in a right lead, I'm in a left with my left leg in front of his right leg. My left hip is flush against his right hip. I pivot 45 degress to the right, driving him in front of my (with the armbar). As I continue to 90 degrees, I drag my left foot diagonally back through his leg to take him down.

    I'm not going to even try to describe the quarter biset. I don't think I could do it justice.

    Puter kepala. I'm inside with my right hand behind his head and his left hand on his right wrist. I lift up and to the right with my left arm while dropping down and to the left with my right hand. Making a circle with my hands and throwing him. This is very directional. I can sit him directly down in front of me. I can stand him back up. I can throw him away from me in a variety of directions.

    Reverse puter kepala. I'm outside his line with his right arm trapped against his chest with my left hand and my right hand on his forehead. I push his head back and down to break his balance, then lower my right arm to take him down.

    Kenjit siko. We're facing the same way. My left side is flush against his right. I'm in a horse stance with my left leg behind his right leg. My left arm is extended across his chest and I've already broken his balance so he's bent back over my left leg. I compress my elbow through his chest toward the ground behind my left leg to take him down.

    Reverse kenjit siko. We're facing opposite directions. My right side is flush against his right side. I'm in a horse stance with my right leg in front of his right leg. My left arm is extended behind his back and he's unbalanced to his front. I compress my right elbow into his back, first upwards to break his balance further, then down toward the ground behind my right leg to take him down.

    Kenjit kaki. I've got my left foot hooked around his right foot. I lower my knee to compress through his leg and take him down. Another variation would be that I do an oblique kick (a "dempok") to his leg/knee to compress his leg and take him down.

    Kunci. Any kind of lock.

    I'd also say that sepok, dempok, and silaw are pretty representative of Silat. But I'll leave those for Yoda to explain if he wants (see, I can handle a baton too ;) )

  5. Fergie Boy

    Fergie Boy New Member

    Step forward with commitment. Steal oppnents balance and put him down cutting all the way.
  6. Cougar_v203

    Cougar_v203 4th surgery....Complete!

    forward sweep?...what?
  7. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    Not sure what you're asking :)

    But, like I said, the easiest way for me to describe the sapu (forward sweep) is for you to watch the vid clips at http://www.impactacademy.com/videos

  8. Cougar_v203

    Cougar_v203 4th surgery....Complete!

    the sapu dalam video confused me a bit.
    let me see if I have this correct:
    Opponent Swings a left or right hook
    you duck under and you have one arm on their back (right?)
    you then take the closest leg thats close to your opponent and use that leg to trip em. is this correct?
  9. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    Essentially, yes. However, it doesn't have to be a hook. I shot that clip specifically to illustrate that specific usage of the technique. There are many ways to get to it.

    Basically, as I was taught, you've got a set of entries, a set of transitions, and a set of techniques. You can get from any entry to any technique (via the transitions).

    How many entries, transitions, and technical essences (the sapu, biset, etc.) you have will depend on how you break them down and count them.

    But, the way my instructor breaks it down at the basic level, is that there are 3 basic entries (one outside entry, one split entry, and one inside entry) and 2 basic technical essences (this is at the most basic level where people start). He doesn't enumerate the transitions, but there are a handful of standard transitions at the basic level.

    So, what this gives you is a 3 x 2 matrix. You can go from any of the 3 entries to either of the technical essences. This means that, from this matrix, you have a possibility of 6 different techniques.

    If we stick with just those 3 basic entries, but add a few more technical essences (the 5 listed in this thread), now you've got a possibility of 15 distinct techniques. And that's not counting the variations I mentioned on some of the 5 technical essences listed in this thread.

    So, you can see, that 2 dimensional matrix can get pretty big when you have, say, 8 entries and 8 technical essences. Now you're looking at 64 distinct techniques.

    And that's still at the "basic" level. The matrix that gets developed is actually 3 dimensional. Because you can also go from any technical essence to any technical essence. So that if one breaks down or is resisted/countered, you flow to another. So, now, going back to the original 3 x 2, it becomes a 3 x 2 x 2 matrix and suddenly you've got 12 distinct techniques/combinations. And that's still not quite accurate.

    If the 2 technical essences you're using are, for instance, sapu and biset. Then you've also got the variations: sapu luar, sapu dalam, biset luar, biset dalam, quarter biset luar, quarter biset dalam. And you've got 2 variations of the sapu luar, the "side line" and the "L line". So, now that matrix becomes 3 x 7 x 7 and you've got 147 distinct techniques/combinations that you can do.

    As you can see, the Silat (at least as I've learned it) starts with a very small core, then broadens and deepens exponentially as you progress. At the end, you end up with a handful of entries, a handful of transitions, and a handful of technical essences, but a virtually infinite number of techniques/combinations that can be drawn out of them. The actual numbers, like I said, will depend on how you (or your instructor) breaks them out and counts them.

    But the numbers don't get very big when broken apart. I think, at the most broken down, I can come up with about 10 entries and 15 technical essences. We really only have a couple of transitions that we specifically isolate at basic levels because, as you progress, you learn to find transitions "on the fly" based on the energy you receive from your training partner/uke/opponent (depending on the situation).

    So, with 10 entries and 15 technical essences, that's pretty managable. When you start looking at it, though, there's a possibility of 2250 distinct techniques.

    And, once again, that's not really the whole picture :) Because all of that can be done standing, kneeling, or lying on the ground. So, really, if you opted to count it as such, you could count it as 6750 distinct techniques (and beginners sometimes perceive it as such when they see their instructor flowing from one thing to the next because the beginner doesn't yet understand the underlying principles and the fact that it's really all the same core set of entries and technical essences).

    Confused yet?


  10. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    Oh. And there's more ;)

    You can also sweep hands, knees, elbows, even heads. Anything that's touching the floor can be swept. And some people might count these as different techniques even though it's still the same sapu or biset.

    Also, you can do sweeps with other parts of your body. For instance, if I'm on my knees, I can do a biset luar with my hand/arm. I don't have to use my leg to do the sweeps. These could also be counted as individual techniques and would jack the total number of possibilities up even higher.

  11. Cougar_v203

    Cougar_v203 4th surgery....Complete!

  12. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    Ha ha! See the true power of Silat! I'm not even in the same state as you but, still, I can stun you :D

    It's kind of like finding the mountain (the permutations) beneath the mole hill (the core elements) ;)

    But, really, I think every art could be laid out like this. They just use a different approach in their training.

  13. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    This whole "matrix" thing can also be illustrated with the Indonesian term "pecahan" (pronounced "pet-cha-han").

    The word literally translates as "fragment." But also refers to a form of divination where they drop a glass vase and read the future in the pattern of the fragments.

    In Silat, I've seen the term applied to several concepts. But it fits this discussion, too.

    The basic elements (entries, transitions, and technical essences) are the vase. When you drop it (put it into application), it shatters into a bunch of fragments. Each is unique in its own way, but each is still a part of the basic whole.

  14. Cougar_v203

    Cougar_v203 4th surgery....Complete!

    the second one (the one you duck the guys attack) do you hit them with your elbow? because thats the message i'm getting.
  15. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    Absolutely. The Silat I train in, as I mentioned at the beginning of this thread, draws from several sources. But a large proportion of those sources are "pukulan" systems. "Pukulan" literally means "to hit."

    Pukulan systems do a lot of hitting. Pretty much anywhere we can fit a strike, we do. The strikes are used to disrupt the opponent's balance and, often, to take the opponent down. And, like any other art, the strikes are also used for causing injury, distraction, to set up locks, etc. But, generally, they're geared toward unbalancing the guy and taking him down.

    In fact, in that video, there are a couple of elbow strikes. I strike to his ribs with my elbow as I bob under his hook. Then I do a back downward elbow strike into his kidney to unbalance him, then I kick is leg out as I move through him.

    All the Silat that I do is based on walking. In fact, "all" Silat may be based on walking, I don't know. But all of it that I've been exposed to is largely based on walking. So the intent is to "walk through" the opponent. But the "walking" can be done while on your feet, on your knees, or even on the ground. It's not just a physical "walk", it's an attitude, too. It's a mindset.

    Here's a little comparison/contrast insight into the Silat mindset. In Japanese/Okinawan arts, they use the term, "uke" for the person who gets the short end of the stick in training. "Uke" means (roughly) "receiver." And it's a good word, but it's somewhat "nice." Which is sometimes deceptive, of course, but nonetheless, it's a "nice" word."

    In Silat, I've heard 2 terms for the "uke." One is "murid mati" which means "dead student." A little different mindset, eh? The other is "sujit" which means "prop." The "uke" isn't even a person. He's a prop.

    Though, here in America, many Silat players come from a Karate background or exposure and use the term "uke."

    But the mindset is still there. It's not a person in front of me. It's an obstacle that I have to "walk" through to get to my goal. Nothing more. Nothing less. But since it's in my way, I'm going to walk through it with extreme prejudice :D

    There's a book called "Indonesian Fighting Fundamentals" by Bob Orlando. It's a good book. Primarily it discusses the Kuntao Silat of Willem de Thouars. But in one place, he relates a story about the difference between Silat and Kuntao. I think it also is a good example of the mindset of Silat, and you get a little insight into the Kuntao mindset, too.

    On one mountain top, a Silat master is fighting an opponent. He crashes into the opponent, and through the opponent, knocking him off the mountain. The man hits the bottom of the mountain, dead.

    On another mountain top, a Kuntao master is fighting an opponent. He moves in, delivering a punishing series of strikes to punish the attacker, then knocks him off the mountain. The man, still alive, falls down the side of the mountain, striking every rock along the way, and dies slowly at the base of the mountain.

    I know I don't have the exact wording that Bob used in the book, but it's a pretty close paraphrase.

    And as Uncle Bill (Willem de Thouars) said at a seminar once, "Training with me is 5 things. Pain, pain, pain, pain, pain." You can tell he's a Kuntao Silat man, and I can attest to the truth of that claim. I'm feeling some of that pain right now (I've been visiting and training with Uncle Bill this past week) :D

  16. Cougar_v203

    Cougar_v203 4th surgery....Complete!

    w00t! w00t! I Roxored my friends boxorz...wait that didn't sound right, anyways thanks i'll have to try it next time on my g/f :D sike.
  17. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    You're a strange 'un Cougar ;)

    "Have fun stormin' the castle."

  18. Cougar_v203

    Cougar_v203 4th surgery....Complete!

    damn her defenses are too strong lol :D
    only one man stormed the castle :)
    I know i'm strange.

    to.hard.to.run.with.thing.on.back...WAAAAAHAHAHA!!!....I think I wet myself.
  19. paulsilat

    paulsilat New Member

    I have just seen the video clips that the link connects to, and I was far from impressed.

    This is by no means meant as an insult, but the techniques were sloppy, and the lankha was nothing short of embarrasing.

    Having trained in traditional Sumatran Minangkabua silat for many years, it is important for me to emphasize the essential part that a solid, rooted lankha foundation has to play in pulling off any silat "technique".

    On the "Depok to Sapu Luar" clip, the instructor has NO stabilty in his movement, and temporarily loses his balance after the 1st sweep, and he doesn't use a depok (cross-over leg) at all.

    On the video where he uses the clothing of the attacker, it fails to work even at slow speed, with a standing still opponent.

    I do not mean to personally attack anybody or any system, but I have seen many people give the art of Silat a bad name over the years, and have become very padantic about the importance of the basic principles in every technique.

    Once again, this is not meant to insult anyone, but are just my honest opinions.

    Kind Regards
  20. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    Hi Paul, and welcome to the forum.

    I believe Mike AKA Pesilat, who is a respected stateside FMA practitioner (not to mention Forum Moderator), simply posted some basic examples so we all knew what he was talking about. The Mpeg, having just viewed it, is obviously an 'off the cuff' example as you can tell by the informal environment and the big cheesy grins.

    If you have better examples of this technique, then please feel free to post them for our edification.

    Incidentally, Mikes going to be over here soon teaching seminars, so maybe you can come and play?

    Take Care.


Share This Page