What are both the pros and cons of training in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu?

Fair enough, I'm no expert on Stephan Kesting, and took his comments at face value.

 

This is an example of how unrealistic the bujinkan techniques are:

 

"This video is about when people who train a ton of martial arts spar for the first time" - first line of video

Whether you like it or not, the issue of training for a significant period of time without sparring or pressure is far more common in traditional/pseudo traditional arts than combat sport arts.

His statement about martial artists who either don't spar or spar infrequently reverting to bad boxing/kickboxing is true to my experience and I've trained in a ton of arts that use sparring as an addendum rather than central to their method. I really don't think there is anything arrogant about it.

I know you are quick to jump on anything that positions itself as opposed to 'traditional' arts especially if it's operating from an 'mma' perspective but really, in this instance I think the overall point is extremely valid.

 

Your experience is the same as mine,
And I'd go further to say it especially looks like bad kick boxing when they have to spar someone from outside their art and not under their systems particular restricted rule set.

As for looking like good or bad kick boxing well good structure and mechanics are universal ie full.contact stick fighting looks the same the world over, same strikes and footwork generally . grappling looks the same the world over given differences in rule sets, ie no GI judo throws and takedowns look like free style wrestling because good mechanics are universal.

Why should striking be different? If an art looks totally different to how professional fighters look when striking or moving then I'm suspicious they have anything worthwhile to learn

 

Surely one of the few truisms of martial arts is that if you are unfamiliar with something it can/will shock, surprise and potentially defeat you should you encounter it.
As far as I'm concerned that's one of the few reliable "truths" MMA has revealed to the world.
That includes contact levels higher than you are used to, grappling when all you do is striking, striking when all you do is grappling, weapons when all you do is unarmed stuff, bare aggression and swearing when all you see in training is courtesy and friendship, leg kicks when all your kicks are above the waist, kick catching when your sparring rules don't allow them, sucker punches when all you do is touch gloves to start a round, etc etc.
Kesting's basically pointing out that many people are unfamiliar with hard sparring even though they might "spar" in their martial art. And due to the unfamiliarity their technique and poise and composure go out the window and they resort to bad boxing/kicboxing.

I've had a few cases of people trying unfamiliar things on me (at least they thought it was unfamiliar).
Some guy tried to hip throw me at Karate one time. Onto a hard wood floor. So I sunk my hips, pushed on his hips and killed the throw because I had just enough grappling knowledge (not much) to feel what he was doing.
Had people up the contact in semi-contact sparring so, as I've done some heavy contact sparring myself, I upped my contact.

 

It's not that first sentence I have a problem with. If you don't spar as part of your training (whether you do Japanese Jiu Jitsu or modern RBSD), the first time you get punched in the face unexpectedly, it's going to be pretty jarring. I'm fine with that.

It's the rest of the video, where he equates that problem with "traditional" (even if your traditional club free-spars on a weekly basis) and implies it doesn't ever exist with BJJ (even if you're learning BJJ from online videos instead of an in-person club...and remember he sells those videos).

You act like I'm some traditional-uber-alles partisan warrior. I'm not. About half of my time in combat sports and martial arts have been in Olympic sports (fencing and Olympic-style taekwondo). I personally was very much on the sport side of HEMA-versus-sport-fencing debates. And the primary reason I quit Shotokan was I wanted free-sparring to be part of my training and the particular Shotokan organization I was a part of didn't really do it to a significant degree. One of the things I really like about my Tang Soo Do school is that padwork and free sparring are very regular parts of my training. (Yes, the free sparring is light contact instead of full contact, but that's a personal cost - benefit choice I've made for a variety of reasons).

My main angle is, instead, that sometimes this forum reads like "MMA is the only valid way" and while I have a massive amount of respect for MMA in turning out capable fighters, I just don't think martial arts scene as a whole is a one-size-fits-all situation where everyone who does something besides MMA is "doing it wrong" and should be continually reminded as such on online forums.

 

It's all about intent and intensity

The genius of kano was he realised the more you can limit how much you train compliantly and the more you develop a rule set which allows for safe full randori the better you will be when a confrontation happens. Likewise the weakest part of bjj is the self defence side precisely because its rehearsed you would be better doing an mma class and a Geoff Thompson seminar in all honestly.

The more your training is stilted towards partner work which is scripted the less prepared you are for when something truely bad happens, having someone swing a stick at you in a class environment is one thing but it no more prepares you for a real attack than being a judoka who occasionally plays with a weapon, at least the judoka will be used to real intensity and violence so won't be phased by that.

 

It's all good. You dislike MMA evangelising, you've said as much before and it's simply that which I'm highlighting and the extent to which this bias might inform your reaction/over reaction.

The problem with poorly integrated or nonexistent sparring is a problem predominantly within 'traditional' arts. It's not exclusive for sure; but what is exclusive is the disconnect between the physical material they train and what they produce under pressure: the process of sparring and having all your crane step to dragon grip to tiger palm fist and stance to the floating ribs disappears.
He's using his experiences of (one) kajukenbo school to stand as an example of a particular problem in training and a metonym for the worst elements of TMA practice. I can relate to it. It might have been fairer to highlight that traditional isn't a euphemism for 'doesn't spar' but who cares? It doesn't really detract from the points made and hardly makes it a 'terrible video'.

 

In fairness, and as evidenced by dunc, it is Bujinkan members who I have read slagging Van Donk off more than anybody.

 

So if this van donk guy is so bad, he's not been graded highly has he?

I mean that would be a sign of terrible QC in a martial art wouldn't it.....

 

I'm told that's not the way grades work in the buj...

 

That's the way it works though isn't it?
When someone's in Hatsumi's good books they are fine. As soon as they lose that then all of a sudden their grade means nothing, they were dumb westerners that were pandered to, they didn't actually receive the good stuff or true transmission, they didn't train in Japan enough etc etc.
It's happened to Donk and Hayes and probably more.

 

Unfortunately that's not the way anyone else uses grades, so it's a valid concern.

At least van donk/bujinkan doesn't grade online/by mail...