What advantages and disadvantages does having big muscles give you in a fight??

This is a severe oversimplification of a complex issue. You don't believe in Kyusho Jutsu by any chance do you?

 

The fact that good cardio is going to give you fitter, healthier body to survive life itself should be enough reason to do a healthy workout. A smart brain, of which we have all been blessed should sort out the fighting, just avoid it.
If you have to fight then good cardio is going to help big time, both during a fight and running away after you've ground the punk into the pavement.

 

I think you underestimate average joe, i'l give you that average joe wont last 3 min against a well trained MA'er / Lifter / or anyone who's in a decent shape but pitch average joe against average joe and i do think they can go on for 3 min against eachother after that they'l be pretty exhausted etc etc but i do not believe average joe cant fight for his life when its for real.

 

It's not a theory. Simple physics mate. Obviously it takes a degree of skill to bypass someones guard to deliver a knock out, but it certainly does not take a strong man. Why do you think boxers choose to cover their chin instead of their abdomen?


http://www.boxingdaily.co.uk/how-to-knock-someone-out/

 

Hmm.... i believe the article you linked is not correct from what i'v read (on map and other places) is that the knock out is caused by the raped twisting of the head (hitting on the chin acts as a leverage causing the head to rotate). Because the brain is not attached to the skull it still has rotating force even when the skull has stopped spinning. Now because of this rapid speeding but especially the slowing down of the skull causes the brain wich freely floats in cerebrospinal fluid to keep going and thereby hitting the skull causing minor trauma to the brain stem and effectivly shutting the brain down.

 

Yes you are right in that:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/yt-ehvwjNUUW1o/anatomy_one_punch_knockout/

But both articles have merit.

My original point was that it does not take much to cause concussion. We are talking about the merits of muscle mass here and I wanted to illustrate that despite someone's size, they are just as susceptible to either a well aimed knock out blow, or just someone's lucky jaw shot.

 

the advantege is if you tumble to the ground the heavier gaff will probably have the advantage, unless hes a total fight noob. When on top his weight and strength will squash the smaller one, also in hes under, chances are hes going to be able to use his size to get up and out.

But its all pointless, no 2 people are the same.

 

Hehe but again you picked a terrible link to support your post the KO punch from up front dous need a very big ammount of force to knock one out since it dousnt have the leverage effect as hitting someone on the chin dous to be able to KO someone like that you need be well trained and have alot of raw physical power aswell.

btw i'v seen that whole documentary and i think that somewhere in there they also state that the ammount of force is a 1000 pound punch they compared it to punches from other styles and found out the boxing one was the one with the most force note that this is not a punch anyone could pull off and with just excellent technique you wont be able to make 1000 pound to knock someone out with this upfront punch you need to be relativly big and have a decent pack of muscles. Funny enough they even state in the vid size dous matter . Also note that later in the documentary they state that even this 1000 pound puch upfront is not a guranteed knock out it really depends who you'r hitting if you hit a big person with alot of muscle's and mass he will be able to take more then he would be able to if was 50 lb muscle lighter.

 

TurboKC, I think maybe I didn't read enough into your admission that you're talking about a "lucky" shot. Too bad you can't train for improved luck, eh?

People have different chins man. There is no such thing as a guaranteed knockout blow. I might go down from a 12 year old girl ringing my bell just right, and then you might laugh at me if I hit you in the same spot with a running start. Despite what we've all seen James Bond and Captain Kirk accomplish with hundreds of deadly judo chops, I still don't believe in being able to knock people out at will, unless of course you're talking about chokes.

As for the old "twist the skull so fast the brain bounces off the sides" trick, which is a more likely means of knockout, I would think that neck musculature as well as individual differences in skulls and brains would be a big factor in whether a given blow would be a knockout.

 

It wasn't that your average guy can't fight. In fact, I probably believe less than just about anybody here in the difference in fighting ability between your average guy and a "martial artist.*" What I'm disagreeing with is the "all out" notion. In fights I've seen in person and on video and experienced in my own personal life, in the absence of a lucky knockout or one party stopping or as you cited above, somebody breaking it up, I've seen periods of relative rest during the fight.

Do me a favor and go down to your local high school or college and sprint the bleachers for three minutes as hard as you can and tell me if A: you can do it and B: you were really at the same energy level at the end as you were at the beginning. I'm in pretty good shape and I can tell you that the answer for me is No and No.

*where "martial artist" and "athlete" are considered separate concepts

 

Lol, OK I guess there were some contradictions there, and it probably looks like I think anyone could knock a man out cold if he just knew how.

Of course, there are so many factors involved it probably isn't worth this entire thread, but getting back to the root of the issue, I still believe that size doesn't win over skill and when it comes down to it I would rather have a lean chap with a degree of experience on my side than a large man with none.

 

Well, I did some reading around and I'm not done yet, but in looking for something to shore up my case I actually found something that lends some weight to TurboKC. I encourage everybody to take a look at this rather scholarly work given the subject: http://www.ibroresearch.com/Articles/Punching Power.htm

There is more real verifiable fight information as far as video and statistics go on boxing than probably any other type of fighting. Consequently I was looking for some information on which weight classes have the highest proportion of knockouts. I suspect it's actually going to be the lower weight classes because there's less clinching but I haven't found what I sought yet. Still, here are some highlights from the article I linked above:
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"During the 2000 Olympic Trials all the American boxers routinely worked on a heavy bag with power measuring sensors. Jeff Lacy (165 pound entrant) had the highest scores. Unfortunately, few such large studies exist."

"Mike Silver succinctly gave his opinion on punching power. “Once a fighter weighs from 175-185 pounds, that’s all he needs to really, really, hit. Science has yet to determine why certain men hit harder than others and nobody really knows why. Nevertheless, there have been men who weighed 180 pounds and hit as hard and perhaps harder than any whoever lived. The hardest hitter that I know of weighed 190 pounds.“"

"Nat Fleischer, in Training for Boxers, 1972, p. 99, stated that the shoulder muscles play an important role in delivering a punch. Any boxer with a well-developed back and shoulders is likely to be a good hitter."

"Morton Sharnik, writing about Earnie Shavers in Sports Illustrated, September 12 1977, p. 77, described Shavers as follows – “This ability to disintegrate folks seems to come from his enormous back and shoulders which seem much too big for Shavers’ frame.”"
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Of course, this is comparing different sizes of highly trained athletes, not athletes and average joes. Size isn't everything, but nobody suggests being weaker makes you high harder...but it's possible that a rather unbalanced physique from a health or overall strength standpoint might in fact make for a better striker.

(Apologies to all grapplers, to whom none of this information applies, but I think most of you already know whether you want to be stronger or not.)

 

Ye this is an important thing fighters with a short chin and well developed neck muscle's are less likely to get KO'ed then if they had a longer chin and weaker neck muscle's. Also some can just take alot naturally we all know some fighters that just never see to go down no matter how much they take i do think this is partially god given talent.

You are correct this is what i meant by all out not chainpunching but fighting consitenly with ofcourse the natural pause moments. And obviously for me the answer to your question is no and no aswell .

I never disagreed with you on this part skill is the most dominated feature imo.

Great article but i do believe everyone can become a good hitter we might not all have the talent for world class boxers but everyone can train to pack a proper punch. I dont like the sound of unbalanced physique punching power comes from kinetic linking and kinetic linking is in essence functional core strenght. Having naturally big shoulders and back can contribute to ones core power but its not the key to obtaining punching power. The key is imo first proper technique second proper muscular development with a focus on balance and core strenght and third genetics and size.

 

Ah, but the article also mentions that nobody knows exactly what makes one person a fierce puncher and another person merely adequate, other than such somewhat vague factors as being "well-developed" or "coordinated." I do think the article had the point that if you're not a hard hitter, getting bigger, or at least heavier, may not be the way to fix that. Unfortunately even if I can find the KO statistics I'm looking for they won't be tabulated by "fitness" or body fat percentage or anything like that but merely by weight class and provided a person can perform well within a given weight class we have no guarantees at all about exactly what shape that person is going to be.

The problem is of course that someone with bigger muscles will also have a better cover, take less damage when he does get hit, be harder to throw, squash you that much more if you try to shoot and he sprawls, move less when he gets hit, and push you around a lot more, which can be pretty tiring for the smaller guy.

 

I think that part is a big deal. If you have more conditioning than I do and you need fewer of those natural pauses, or shorter ones, then you can escalate the fight to a level of athleticism I can't match, and probably win.

I only mention any of this because your first comment on the subject sounded dangerously close to saying "nobody needs cardio to be a fighter," which is advice I'd hate to see you or anybody else actually take.

 

The part we cant figure we call talent personally i think it has to do with some persons being more gifted in optimizing neural motor pathways in contrary to other people. I think the main point of the article was more that mass is not the biggest factor in punch power in people who weigh over 180 pounds. So if you want to punch harder improving your technique will be the most effective way to do it. Getting heavier will help your punches but only if your putting on effective weight if you gain 20 pounds of fat the extra contribution of the mass you gain is far less then the ammount of coordination, flexibility, speed etc etc you lose therefor making your punch weaker. A ton of weight will do you no good if you do not utilize it.

I agree with you but on the matter of self defence its far from the top priority imo since most of the fights are so short and most of the time your oppenent wont have an excellent condition either. But i'd prefer the big muscle's if i had to choose for myself since i know for one at least i'm certain i will be able to utilize them. If he comes for me i have alot of power and force to take him out and if he dousnt come for me i have a time to catch my breath. I think its a safer bet (not saying betting on this is smart) to bet one the ability you will certainly need and that is to put out force and take hits.

Sorry it was not my intension to do so i only think its not the highest on the priority list of what you need for self defence. On a sidenote i think any martial artist would be crazy not to train his Anaerobic Glycolysis system and for a healthy lifestyle i would highly recommand training your Aerobic Metabolism system aswell.

 

The Pros, Physical Intimidation (Scares the other guy off or psyches him into thinking he has already lost before you have even fought him), Strength (Grappling, Pushing, Wrestling, Attacking, Lifting etc throwing your weight) Toughness (Taking a beating, getting hit on the arms for example would hurt less, big abs would protect your stomach)

The Cons, apparently you will be more Sluggish with Less Stamina, I have been bulking up gradually using weights and its made me faster and stronger so that's a lot of rubbish, the only reason I have lost any stamina at all is because I quit running to bulk faster. I think if I was to continue doing this for a long time it might slow me down though.

 

Honestly having had been both a fatty and a skinny and fought full contact I'd say that having more fat on top of your abs protects your stomach nicely. Six-packs bruise easily.

 

Alpha Lion,
If used properly, weight training should increase your stamina and speed, not decrease it, though it would be wise to continue to specifically work on your endurance. Having greater muscle mass, even a huge amount should not hinder this. Any drop you have had while trying to gain muscle mass would probably come from you dropping your specific endurance training. In fact, by working on both your cardio and muscular endurance, these should contribute to you building lean muscle mas as it's necesary for the muscles to have the cardio support to grow (at least on a drug free program). I have quite a bit of lean muscle mass and it has never decreased by speed, agility or endurance. To the contrary, it has enhanced them.


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLYnt3aijU0"]YouTube - Ernie Reyes : KJN David Hughes Sampler[/ame]

MrGalt,
I have had quite a bit of experience in full contact myself and I have never had any problem with my abs being bruised. I've taken people's best shots there for over 35 years and I have ben very happy with the protective effects of my "body armor" since I was a kid. I really doubt it would have helped as much if I had a layer of fat over them.

 

KJ,

Sounds like we've had different experiences, although I've never been your size or body composition. I do have to ask about one potential difference though: what protective equipment did you use when you did full contact?