so the fight is still going on http://articles.elitefts.com/training-articles/in-defense-of-westside-for-raw-lifters/ whilst its no surprise someone on dave tates site would come out in defence of westside for raw lifters its still a nice read food for thought though if you call for a narrower stance for squats, no box squatting no tucking the elbows on the bench, little or no board work, and make speed work an option which can be replaced by another heavy day and some jumps.....is it really still westside? they also skirt around the other big issue: namely is rotation of max lifts a good idea when technique in raw lifting is everything? if you dont rotate you need to manage volume and intensity (as dave tate sponsered raw lifter scot yard and former sponsored lifter chad smith both pointed out) which takes it even further away from westside principles. Oh and the other big factor is that only 3 or 4 lifters can be named as doing anything raw coming from louies teaching (and one of them in bnch only) and none of them in the ipf where the majority of the real meets happen for raw lifters
Yep all that plus...How many steroids do you need to take? (Someone had to bring that up) Interesting read though it is.
I was watching a video on a roundtable discussion about programming at EliteFTS and a lot of people said they did a bit of bodybuilding style a bit of Westside. Some talked about getting volume in and getting max effort, a lot didn't have any Deload, or what one guy amusingly termed Emergency Deload aka Injury! I'm guessing that when people say a bit of Westside all they mean is some Repetition or volume work, some Dynamic and some Max effort, including variations on the standard Squat, Bench and Deadlift including bands and chains. In another video Clint Darden's take on it was that gear back in the day (like the 90s at WB) was nothing like we consider gear today, it was pretty basic, okay so not exactly raw but maybe that's why some totals are now as high as they are. Mark Bell says he mainly uses the Cube Method which is supposed to be a WB hybrid, and he's recently gone back to raw Squats
The author is training at the westside gym, but like icefield said is her programming really still westside? I stand by the old adage "the only people training westside method are in westside gym" there is waaaay more than people think to it. I can't see much need for 90% of lifers to adopt to westside over just getting strong, that said I love box squats, and I do beleive DE deads have their place. Course I can't see what a DE dead would give you that a powerclean wouldn't aside from technique practice.
i like the cube method adaptation but after reading Simmon's on T-Nation say he can make any athlete better, i wonder how much is just hype... also reading the russian texts he got his ideas from, our exposure of westside is really the tip of the iceberg. SIDE NOTE to steve: i think powercleans are pretty stupid in place of DE deadlifts compared to a high pull for any athlete, other than a beginning olympic lifter or a crossfitter even contact sport athletes are better off with high pulls and some eccentric manipulated front squats cos the will learn to receive force from their specific sport
People have been using power cleans in the NFL for years for one reason, they work damned well, are they really that hard to learn? I've only been coaching a month or so now but most everyone I teach learns the powerclean real quick. Maybe I'm just awesome though...
It takes maybe 2 days to teach a power clean, they're pretty easy to teach. My argument isn't that they're hard to learn, it's the idea that what is the benefit of power cleans per high pulls? The Nfl does power cleans for triple extension and possibly the fast eccentric from the catch. The fast power output and absorption mimics the contact between offensive and defensive. My argument is that loading on the triple extension is greater with the high pull. And there was an article in try UKSCA arguing that drop jumps could provide a fast eccentric in place but also that most the force absorption/ fast eccentric work would come from specific training and drills
DE deads are more for technique cueing in than anything else, so replacing them with the powerclean wouldnt really make sense, if you are an athelte then the powerclean trumps a DE deadlift hands down moving 60. or even 70% of your max on the deadlift doesn't do anything for your deadlift really other than help groove your movement pattern (and even here im not too sold on the idea as anyone who has lifted a heavy deadlift knows technique changes when you get close to 100% of your max on the bar), its too low a weight to actually do anything for you in terms of strength building or even building speed. Westside seem to build their deadlift via the box squat, which is a posterior chain dominant movement with a pause at the bottom which doesnt allow for any rebound effect in the lift, which mimics the deadlift. But as to which is better for bulidng the deadlift box squatting or actually deadlifting every week heavy..... well apart from westide nearly every other major gym (especially raw gyms) deadlift heavy every week or at least every other week so......
problem is colleges in the states love to test their athletes strength, and a lot have baseline numbers you must reach, or a league table to make lifting competitive, and its easier to measure a successful powerclean than a high pull, if you catch the clean its successful but a high pull...how high does it have to go, how do you judge a successful lift??
clean high pulls are to a minimum of the bottom of the rib cage snatch high pulls are to a minimum of the nipples. that's the coaching cues for the high pull
I've never seen a Westside vid with anyone doing either a Power Clean or High Pull so not sure how this is relevant to the OP
Like I said before for me in a non-Oly equipped gym doing high pulls with any real weight is much harder than power cleans, both in effort (the straight up bar path leads quickly to straight down) and safety (preventing it from injuring my legs when I can't drop it on the floor so need to catch it)
Exactamundo. I will say my deadlift is making more progress than it has in a long time from box squats with moderate-heavy weights and pulling 80% Deadlifts from a slight defecit, all I'm doing is working the volume up with 80%: week 1 5x1, W2 4x2 W3 4x3. Im no where near a sore from the above two movements than I am from normal heavy dead days either. I remember an s+C coach telling me I'd benefit greatly from the squat to a box, which is different from box squats in that you just touch the box gently, never did try it out lol.
the guys in my gym use the squat to a bench to build there deadlift, both sumo and narrow stance, might start doing it myself lol
Are they like a million feet tall? Beaches in my gym set me WAAAY above wear I'd want to be, lol and I'm pretty lanky. The best for me is 2 reebok aerobics steps both on their lowest setting. I'll photo or video next Monday for you. BB builder friend of mine does them like that, his legs are huge.
I've used both methods. In the old gym I found the bench was a bit on the high side so put some boards down to raise the height. It did make the walkout a bit awkward though. I think I saw Hannah Johnson (from EFTS) do this with some Squats which prompted me to try it out
they mainly use it for sumo deads and its onto a normal comp bench, so its fairly high but it seems to match the hight of their sumo deads when they have actually taken the slack out of the arms and body... Ive not seen anyone use it for normal deads BUT they have suggested it to me (most of them sumo deadlift) its normally done for sets of 5 with a weight you cant suqat to proper depth for a single rep, apparently the walk out and the half squatting also help you get used to heavier weights for your full squat, but its mainly done to aid sticking pouints in the deadlift and the hardest part is the walk out to the bench, thats where you need the spotters so id suggest not doing them without two or at best 3 spotters, if the guy can walk the weight out we know he can half sqyat it to the bench lol
Makes sense, very interesting too, like I said the box is doing good things for my deadlift. Might have to make my sig 'ice loves half squats' though
