One for Fire Cobra here I think. I have recently started some 1 on 1 private elssons with my instructor in MT clinch, as I have my first full Thai fight next month in Phuket. The first thing he said to me at the start fo my first elsson was "Do you want to learn Western style or Eastern style?" For those of you not familiar with the Muay Thai clinch as an art form let me elaborate. It's like the "Hard" vs "Soft" styles debate in the TMA community (Karate vs Kung Fu etc...) Often when the clinch is taught in the west it is a very heavy, kneck destroying intense game involving a lot of aggression, shaking the head, and working to the Plum to try and deliver crippling Kao Drongs as hard and as fast as possible, before turning the head out and finshing with a kick (Or something similar). It's like the leg shield, it works, but at what cost. a lot of this is because the clinch doesnt score very well in the west, and fighters are often split up as soon as the knees stop coming, often the clinch in Western Muay Thai end up as either Plum, kneee break, or boxing clinch, dirty box, split. Watch a Muay Thai bout in Thailand and the clinch is totally different. It's relaxed, technical, using hand sectors, trapping, wedges, foot and hip control, sensitivity, and it has ranges. In training it's taught slowly, usually without gloves, the key attacking knees are the Kao Chang and the Round knee (The name ecapes me at the moment). The Leem is one of the most important aspects taught in clicnh sessions (They drilled it into us for hours in Rawai), it's not all about head control. A TOTALLY different game. Here is a video of Eatern Clinch training (it's kids but I think it's an excellent example of "Thai" clinch trianing): [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIyca2b-oow"]Clinch work 2 - YouTube[/ame] I couldn't find a good example of the western approach on video, any contributions would be great. So i'd like to discuss the difference in a bit of depth here. do any of you Nak Muays consider one system tobe superior in the ring to the other? Shoudl we be working to preserve the traditional approach in order to prevent the further degeneration of Muay Thai in the west (which is a bloddy shambles at present)? Or is the Western approach a necessary evolution of the clinch, better suited to the amount of crosstrained fighters competing in Muay Thai in the 21st century? Of course any further hints, tips, and discussions of clinch strategy form the entry to the exit would be welcome, let's set up a companion thread to the "Muay thai Roundkick" thread.
Hi SCP,my imediate take on your question is the double head control is probably the most dominant position,so if you can get it, get it quick and keep it,however over here(im in thailand at the mo) as you have experienced it is very hard to get a good nak muays neck and control it,this in the main is due to 2 reasons,1) they have extremly well conditioned and strong necks,2) they train the clinch 2x per day in most camps so are very skilled at controlling the opponents arms,which then leads to a whole different clinch game.Back tracking a bit to how strong these guys necks are,ive seen 10 year old kids have a full grown adult double neck clinch them,lay there weight onto the boxers neck while he walks around the ring for 20 mins! try it with your mate guys! and we are talking 10 year olds here! another time during one of my first trips here i picked up a heavy dumbell that was used for neck conditioning,i intended to use it for that purpose,the coach laughed and said oh no thats for the dek dek(kids) and gave me a double heavy one!
I've been making a concerted effort to coach the fight team I've recently begun training with how to clinch the Thai way.... I have a drill to teach them this skill. Fighter #1 is to work the clinch and attempt to gain a position of control.... the head/neck control (plum), body control (double underhooks underneath the arms and around the body), or the stalemate clinch with one arm underhooking your partners arm and the other wrapped around behind his neck). Fighter #2 is to use a skill I refer to "arm weaving" in the context of MuayThai. Its kinda similar to Chi Sau (sp?) of Wing Tsun. You grapple with your opponents arms, trying to control them and prevent them from ever getting hold of you. I also remind both fighters to bear in mind where the elbows and knees fit into their clinch game. Even though this particular drill rarely involves strikes, I want Fighter #1 to be thinking of when & where to throw knee strikes, and for Fighter #2 to be thinking of when & where to throw elbow strikes.
Why should there even be a Western and an Eastern way for clinching? I only see one way and that's the original proven way. If the "Western" way is anything like the brute force, sloppy, half-wrestling, bear-hugging, contortion that passes for sophisticated clinchwork that I've come across so many times, then that's just poor and I would avoid that like the plague. I mean know it just for the sake of it but stick with the original stuff from the Thais. I also think much of the "aggressive approach over technique" stems from the instructor not focusing or knowing enough about this important range as well. Skimping over it. And of course, here in the West, most folks tend to nod off during the clinch so the ref breaks it up. Where's the fun in that? I say learn the traditional Thai method because it's just proven to work. Powerful technique over brute strength - that was and still is the essence of Muay Thai. Learn to clinch and how to leverage, sector, zone away, escape, counter, crowbar, throw, swim the hands, develop sensitivity, place your hips and head, hold a grip, etc. Khunkao's drill is a good demonstration of all that because it instills proven concepts to his students. I'm not pro-Thai, I'm just pro-technique. Look at how Buakaw Por. Pramuk pwns all his opponents in the clinch. He flings his opponents to the canvas with such ease it's poetic. This is the way it should be. Not endless minutes of neck cranking and bear-hugging and forced knees that sometimes bear little to no resemblance to real Thai clinchwork. It's such a turn-off.
well said jakh,buakow couldnt throw his thai opponents in the clinch with such ease could he.One thing though,as much as i love the thai clinch work(and i do love it) it wasnt used very much in the 1960s style of boxing,however the head clinch was prominent,as my instructor said to me "grab his head..knee it and let go,you dont want him to fall on you do you!)
No I don't believe so you might be right. Another guy you'd want to look at is Dieselnoi who retired a reigning champ back in the 80's because he literally destroyed almost every opponent with vicious knees in the clinch. Even though Buakaw is probably a natural at the sport, I hope someday, he puts out an instructional tape or two.
Diesel noi was great,part of that reason was his height for weight ratio,he used the knee to great effect,i had the pleasure to do a small ammount of training with his co coach in sukothai province 2 years ago
This is a great thread & the educated comments are really informative & interesting. I find the clinch work fascinating, when performed properly it really shows the immense skill & subtlety of this art form. Attached is a link i came across, at the beginning of the video there is some clinch work, what i find interesting is the emphasis that is placed on technique rather than brute force, i mean if your partner is digging the knees in how can you ever learn all these complex moves, throws etc? It must be fantastic to train in a real Thai camp like this. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrAuwafqWZk&mode=related&search="]Lumpini & Rajadamnern stadium champions training (4 of 5) - YouTube[/ame]
I may be off-base here, but I honestly believe that one of the reasons for shoddy clinchwork outside of Thailand (at least in my own experience here in the USA) is that many of the original Thai instructors who were responsible for introducing MuayThai to us were fighters from the era before clinchwork became what it is today! My two primary Thai coaches are Por Kru Kumron Vaitayanonta and Kru Bumrung Prawatsrichai. Por Kru Kumron was a fighter from the 50's & 60's. I believe he retired in the mid-60's. He only instructs in the most basic clinchwork. Kru Bumrung was a fighter in the 60's and early 70's. His clinchwork is a little more advanced than Por Kru Kumron's, but not much. Both coaches have told me that as fighters, they preferred to avoid the clinch. Both applied elbow tactics in different manners to prevent their opponent from clinching them. Look at who some of the original big-time U.S. MuayThai instructors were, then look at the era from which their fighting tactics were derived. Most of them were from the early 70's and prior, before clinchwork became such a prevalent and specialized fighting tactic within the sport. Just a theory......
KhunKao,you are probably right,Although i dont know the usa muay thai scene to well i can see where your coming from,my ajarn didnt teach clinch(other than basic)and the clinch seemed to be used a lot less than now in the 1960s,starting to become more used in the 1970s with the long guard work and long knee,and in the 2000s wow probably the last three rounds of most matches!
