Western Fencing is it the Most Superior

Discussion in 'Weapons' started by Jimmy Jitsu, May 8, 2005.

  1. Adam R

    Adam R New Member

    Winding - not binding

    Winden (translated to winding most commonly) is not just engagement of the blades (which some people might take binding to mean) - Ringeck explains that the blades might engage in any of the four hanging guards - and for each of these blade engagements a swordsman should master two 'winden' - the winden being a movement of your sword to gain the weak of their blade with the strong of your own in order to safely dominate their blade to create an opening.

    The 'sticky blades' tag is about right - we practice the process with a similar exercise - also akin to push hands, developing 'fuhlen' (feeling) and response possibilities.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2005
  2. Wynnston

    Wynnston Member

    So winden is forte (lower strong part of blade) against foible (upper weaker part of blade)?
     
  3. Wynnston

    Wynnston Member

    Bang on the money :D
     
  4. Adam R

    Adam R New Member

    Almost - it's the process of moving forte to foible and then executing an attack with opposition all within the bind/engagement. Stolenbjorn's post refers to the concept of Fuhlen within KDF - and the additional advise to fight strength with weakness and weakness with strength - push/sticky hands... :)
     
  5. Archibald

    Archibald A little koala

    Wickid sticks!

    Would that translate ok to the katana? I'm obsessed with the concept of sticky blades - and hands for that matter.
     
  6. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

    OK answer this question.
    is a katana a sword?
    I think you will understand. :love:
     
  7. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    -now, it should be right, then. Thanks for elaborating the Winden for me! (We use them to some degree in Fiore as well, but he seems to prefere to enter into close-play in most hanging-guard-situations (in fiore called "windwow-guards")

    Archibald: I'm not surprised that you have the same consepts in Kenjutsu, and I sease the moment to repeat my favourite statement: There's more that unites WMA-EMA than what separates them!
     
  8. blackpuma

    blackpuma New Member

    The German manuals that I've studied don't spend a large amount of space (percent-wise) on winding and binding, and if somebody said they seemed to prefer to enter into close-play, it would not be an unreasoned conclusion. However, the texts do stress the importance of winding and binding, and sparring shows the many opportunities for it.

    I think opportunities for winding and binding exist in almost every bout, but there is only so much that can be said. The rest is practice and application.

    Thus I think that the lesser amount of ink dedicated to winding and binding does not necessarily mean that it's not used much.

    Training allows one to start to understand the split-second decisions of "oh, if I wind to left ox [like that] I can thrust to the face *wack*" or "ah, *bam* that was a nice situation for a duplieren." Depending on how one comes to the bind, the pressures, the timing, opportunity for one or the other.

    I'd have to go back through Fiore again, but I don't remember Fiore containing much expository writing. That was a weakness, but it's very nice to have the crown and leg band to see who performs the technique. Most manuals are not so explicit, and one is left wondering at times.

    I think you'd benefit supplementing with Ringeck or some other German manual. The concepts between the Italian and German manuals of that time period are basically the same. We spent several weeks going through various sections of Fiore and didn't find anything radically different. Personally I have learned a lot from cross-comparison.
     
  9. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    I wrote the previous post in the light of that someone pointed out that winding not was the same as binding. (I'm from Norway, English is my first foregin language and german is my second, so bare with me.) Fiore have tons of binding (asuming that's the same as the german manuals call "Fûlen"), but not that much use of the german techniques performed from the "hanging guards" (where the swords are held at head-height).

    Asuming that winding someone means thechniques where you dominates your opponent sword by controlling the centreline and offsetting the opponents blade in order to enter into close-play or to cut/pierce him, then Fiore have plenty of Winding as well.

    I see your point in saying that Fiore might be a bit thin when it comes to explaining, but I'd like to remain "pure", as Fiore is the only Martial art I've ever practiced in depth. (I've been skimming trhough Lichtenauer, Talhoffer and Ringek, been presented with Dûrer wresteling, I'33 fencing and Mendoza-boxing, but I cannot really say that I have any grasp on either of those consepts.

    -And yes; Fiore makes it no secret that his style is heavily inspired by the german systems, and there are more similarities than there are differences. The one major difference seems to be Fiores love for entering into close-play more often than the german ones (dropping the "kromphau" and similar techniques alltogether, swapping them with close-play-techniques).

    This might be because he was a very good wrestler, and that that is what worked for him, it could allso be due to speculations that the longswords in use in Northern Italy around the end of the 14th century were shorter than contemplary German ones (when watching the pictures from the manuals, the Fiore-swords seem a little shorter than most of the swords pictured in german longsword-manuals). -Or that Fiore preffered them slightly shorter (and faster).
     
  10. blackpuma

    blackpuma New Member

    Binden, actually.

    Fuellen means feeling. In other words, I can feel if you are strong (offer resistance) or weak (easy to move your sword) and determine an appropriate response. I can also figure out what you are trying to do. I can feel when you disengage to do something else.

    However, the two are used together.

    For example, "...if he is strong in the bind..." How do you know he is strong in the bind? Fuellen. You can feel he resists. He presses strongly. How much time to I spend feeling? Almost none. Strike - bind - counter, very fast, very smooth.

    Winden (winding) is one of several choices.


    We practiced winding from high guards last weekend. If you bind high, middle or low, winding can still happen.

    Yes.

    Pure Fiore? Which book? All three that I've seen have a lot of differences. :D I'm teasing here in a friendly way.

    Actually, if you are comfortable with Fiore, you know 95% of what is in the other manuals. This is why I suggest comparing. This is also why I don't see the point in remaining "pure" Fiore when the others can give great insight into identical techniques and principles. I'm quite confident that if we could meet and compare understanding, that we'd agree that it's pretty much the same.

    This is simply based on the fact that I feel quite comfortable with several German texts, plus my group spent three weeks (well, actually six if you count dagger) going through Fiore. We had no problem understanding most of the plays.

    Could our group be mistaken? Certainly. I'm willing to admit that. However, I'm quite confident that we're right in our assessment of similarities. As is true in every manual, Fiore has some techniques that others don't, but the same principles exist across manuals. Also, the same principles exist across weapons.

    I'm not sure what you mean by close-play. Do you mean closing and using various grappling, trapping, etc. techniques? If so, then I don't think Fiore does it any more than the Germans. That's pretty standard stuff.

    Hand-to-hand / wrestling ("ringen") is the foundation of weapon fighting.

    Also, I wouldn't put too much stock in the proportions of Mediaeval artwork. The surviving swords from Italy weren't any shorter than the ones from Germany of the same time period. Mediaeval artwork can be pretty tricky sometimes. Some are too big to be real. Some are too short, too wide, too crooked.

    Take into account the tremendous amount of exchange around the east Alps during this time period, both economic and military. The tremendous similarity of the surviving manuals during this time period reflect this, in my opinion.
     
  11. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

    something Im sutre most everybody seems to not notice is that in RIngeck's commentaries he states that he wrote them so that anyone who knew how to fight already could learn liechtenauers style, so IMO Ringeck is sorta written for peopel who already sorta know what they are doing so why not take a gander at it.
     
  12. blackpuma

    blackpuma New Member

    This is true. From what I understand, at least in the German schools, one was expected to be thoroughly versed in ringen (unarmed combat/wrestling) before even submitting a petition to join the school.

    All of the manuals that I've looked at thus far also seem to have the basic assumption that you already have a grasp on what you're doing. It's really frustrating at times, because there are a lot of things obviously taken for granted back then that cause a lot of arguing in our modern age of ignorance. I certainly haven't examined all the manuals, but I would hazard that there are no surviving copies of "The Art of Defense for Dummies."

    They're probably all laughing at us from their graves.
     
  13. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    I'm using the manual that is available freely on the internet on the "wildrose"-site I've linked to on several other threads on this forum(I don't know which of the manuscripts that it is). I've allso attended a seminar by Bob Cherron from USA, and Colin Richards; my "mentor" have studied all three.
    I was beeing a bit ironic when using the word "pure", I have no aspirations of believing that I'm any better or worse than other Longswordiers. It's more that it gives me a certain angle in academical discussions surrounding the art of killing others with longsword that might be different than people like you that seems to focus on several manuals.
    Besides; I have more than enough with understanding and interpeting Fiore, and until the day when Fiore stops surprising me and starts to bore me; I'll continue sticking to that manual.
    But I do compare, it's just that I don't train the techniques from the german texts; as I said, I'm only just beginning to get the hang of Fiore (after 4 years of studying him), and feel that I learn very much from sparring with people studying the german longswordmanuals.
    Oh yes, we don't disagree that things are very similar, as I've allready admitted.
    I know that German systems allso include grappeling as an integrated part of the longsword-systems, but I do think that this is where Fiore seems to stand apart from the german systems; he actually use terms like Giokko lago and Giokko stretto that transfers to close-play and long-play. As I said before; Fiore do not show windingtechniques from the "windowguards"; he preferes to grab the opponents blade and then cut him etc. I've gotten the impression (from my weekend-seminars involving german longsword) that the german manuals seems to focus more on winding and binding in the window-guards than Fiore.
     
  14. blackpuma

    blackpuma New Member

    Yes, that's why I used the :D to show that I was being silly in my comments. I was not trying to criticize.

    I couldn't comment on that since I've not picked Fiore apart like I have the Lichtenauer-derived material.
     
  15. Ran Pleasant

    Ran Pleasant Valued Member

    Yes, the German longsword manuals do focus a lot on winding from the bind where as Fiore's manual does not. However, keep in mind that this does not mean that Fiore did not use winding techniques. It only shows the focus of each master. We have to remember that no manual contains the complete system of the master who wrote it. It is just simiply impossible for any person to write down eveything they know. The different versions of Fiore's work probably only represent well less than 10 percent of what he knew. As best that I can tell, most ARMA scholars do not see Fiore's techniques as greatly different from the German techniuqes. In other words, the differences between the different manuals have more to do with what each master focused on while writting their manuals. The differences also have to do with our interpretations of their manuals, some modern scholars see mostly differences while others see similarities. Thus, our abilities and limitations as modern swordsmen are affected by how wide or norrow our focus is in studying these manuals (of course there are many, many other variables that also affects one's skill and abilities). John Clements, the directory of ARMA, has expressed that a wider view of study, in which all manuals are considered and studied, produces better swordsmen. Clement's has been extremely successful with this approach to sword training. The Senior Free Scholars of ARMA, all Clements students, are without doubt some of the best swordsmen in the world.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2005
  16. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    Ye, and this is what I like to explore. I don't think Fiore is better or cooler than Talhoffer, Lichtenauer or Ringek, I just like to explore Fiores thoughts behind his manual.
    Fiore actually writes this in his manual :)
    -and I like to focus on those 10 percent. In order to be able to focus on those 10%, I allso take a sniff on other medieval/renissanse manuals.
    Well, apart from it sounding pretentious, I have no reason to believ otherwise. But you must know that there are other reasons for studying longswrod than beeing able to claim that one are one of the worlds best longswordwielders :rolleyes:


    We aree on all points in other words, we only have slightly differnt motivations for studying the manuals; you wanting to become the best longswordfencers in the World, while I want to study Fiores Fior di Battaglia ;)
     

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