WEKAF Style Sparring, Opinions?

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by Eskrimador, Feb 13, 2005.

  1. Kwajman

    Kwajman Penguin in paradise....

    Hmmm, I was fascinated, I hadn't heard of that WEKAF style before.
     
  2. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Pat,

    Yeah, the way we were taught to sweep, you'd sweep from the side (and slightly behind) so the guy almost invariably landed on his backside. Easy to breakfall from there.

    As for a punyo to the kidney... ugh. That'll take the fight outta ya. (From personal experience that I dearly hope never to repeat.) :)


    Stuart
     
  3. bart

    bart New Member

    unfairness

    Hey There,

    About the 2004 WEKAF World Championships, sadly I have to say that there still was a bit of unfairness going on. I traveled all the way there and judged the entire time. That was my effort to make things fair. I hurt a few feelings when I did judge against some of the Americans, but I was dedicated to making at least my part of the tournament as fair as could be. I think actually though that the most gross blatant cheating that happened was by some of the Philippine military group that used small elastic bands to keep their sticks in the gloves to avoid disarms. I was a judge in the fight where that was discovered and I have to say that I can't remember a single Philippine military fighter that got disarmed during the previous day of competition.

    I judged according to who had the best demonstration of skill and I sent friends of many years home with no trophy because they were bested. I think that hurt a lot of feelings but in the end I think they respected what I was doing. Even Dennis Wilson from London, who beat me in 2000 for 1st place, felt comfortable having me as a judge.

    In my opinion the Swiss outdid everyone else because I believe they seeded the pairings in their favor ahead of time and strategically placed judges in a specific ring where they placed their fights. The only time that I was swapped from my 3 full days of being a judge was when I was objected to by the Swiss and I think that it was because there was the actual danger that I would be "fair".

    Over breakfast, before each day of competition I would sit down in the restaurant of my hotel and make a journal entry of what I had learned. This is some of what I wrote was necessary to combat unfairness:


    "Necessary ingredients to a successful team are judges, referees, coaches, and fighters. These can all be combined in single persons. It is imperative that these people be employed in these roles for several purposes. Judges provide for informed scoring of fights and foster greater understanding of the rules of engagement. Referees provide for an influence of a positive and active nature on the outcome of each match. Coaches provide moral support and foster cameraderie amongst the team. Fighters engage the entire team in the outcome of the event and give purpose to the endeavor. Being involved in all aspects of the game provides intelligence on different contingents within the competition which fosters increased development. Being involved in the outcome of each match ensures that every contingent will be equally dissatisfied and provides for an air of honest, impartial, accountability. It is also important to have people involved at the highest levels of the competition as scorekeepers, jury, and supervisorial officials. This is a protection against overall bias and poor quality of officiation.

    Also important to the impartiality and honesty of a competition is the need for preregistration so that pairings can be made and published before the competition begins. Pairings and strategic placement of judges and referees can greatly influence the outcome of a competition unfairly."


    Anyway, the solution to the problem of unfairness isn't easily solved. And it involves a lot of work from the teams. I think maybe even mandatory work. My opinion might change in the future, but I still think WEKAF is more a positive than a negative and I'd like to do what I can to make it work.
     
  4. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Nicley put Bart,

    Now your see if WEKAF had more people like yourself, then so many top people would not give up in the end and just call it a day. I battled against the cheaters for over 10 years, and in the end had just had enough. WEKAF is a good thing and a lot of positive things have come from it, but it needs to get it's house in order and be more stricter, then I feel it will benefit the FMA more.

    You never know though, I may raise my ugly head again at a future World Championships (jeez I wish some of the Executive Board would stop nagging me).

    Ah the Swiss, well what can I say about the Swiss, apart from they are the biggest bunch of cheating no good, nope I'll stop right there.

    In 2000 I watched them delibiretly try to score one of their own guys in the Sayaw a perfect 10 for what was break dancing, and score a competitor from another country 7 who performed one of the sweetest forms I have ever seen. But little did he know I was looking over his shoulder (Adjudicators can do that you know;) ), it was this same guy that tried to argue with me later in the event when I was infact backing his fighter in an Objection argument over the scoring of the fight. What a red face he had once he realised that not everyone is like him, a Cheat.

    If any of you ever compete at a future WEKAF world championships, just make sure their are no Swiss judges, and if there is, make sure you object to them and have them removed before the bout starts. You are allowed to object once to the judge line up before a bout starts and give no reason for your objection, that rule has been their since 1994, I know I put it in.

    That is why whenever I adjudicated at an international event which was all of them from 1994 to 2000 I would always say the the competitors before each bout, are you happy with the judges, if they said yes and they complained after the bout then I would say, well it's your own fualt, I did ask you if you were happy with them but I will see how I can resolve it.

    I am a firm beleiver of, if you win or lose you bout by fairness then at least you gave it all you had and luck was not on your side that day. If you win by cheating, then you know in your heart of hearts you are not a champion. And if you lose then I feel for you, I have been on the receiving end of that too, but just think of this, in your heart of hearts you still know you are the real champion and it is at the end of the day, just a sport.

    regards

    Pat
     
  5. chenstyle44

    chenstyle44 Valued Member

    Wekaf

    Hi,
    Wear sweats when you spar with the jacket. They tend to lessen the impact of the leg shots some Not Nice People will try to get in on you.
    Also check your helmet for any split seams because i took on one the noggin that set my ears ringing for about an hour and I had to stop the sparring session because it freaked me out. The threads split at the back where the back piece connects with the leather on the side. That was a hell of an accurate shot Chris!!!
    I dont like doing take downs with the helmet on. Its too bulky and I fear neck injuries as a result of the bulkiness.
    Anybody use lacross equipment for sparring?
    Im thinking of buying a set of the arm padding because they cover more area on the arm and have a better articulation at the elbow joint than most hockey elbow pads. The hockey stuff has the ballistic plastic stuff which I think would be superior to the foam of the lacrosse stuff for impact protection.
    Gord
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 13, 2005
  6. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Noooo, really. You know that was my fault:D . I was sat reading the rulkes back in 91 when 99% of the fighters used to automatically hit you from the waiste up. I noticed that it said "Any hit above the knee" and thought to myself Mmmm, no padding on the legs, I wonder:rolleyes: .

    Now in 92 in Cebu a lot of the British team used this nice little thing to great effect, and in 94 a few more teams cottoned on to it (dam).

    Now in 96 in Los Angeles, it was payback time, fought one guy who smashed the living hell out of my legs. I was in a what you could call a little pain:cry: . only to be told by one of the Executive "Well you've only got yourself to blame Pat, you started it". I hate it when a plan comes together:D

    regards

    Pat
     
  7. Diego_Vega

    Diego_Vega Frustrated pacifist

    Uh, yeah, that was my classmate in KDL. Oh man, the welts on your leg. They're still easily seen on 9 year old videotape, taken with an analog camera from the top of the bleechers. Who said WEKAF doesn't hurt?
     
  8. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Hehe, send him my regards, I learnt a lot that day. What goes around, comes around eh!, you know Jeff Finder took a point off of me for turning my back, stupid man. KDL hit me so hard on the back of the knee I had no chioce but to turn and drop to my knee. Still get a limp from it every now and then when the weather is a bit too chilly.

    I would'nt mid seeing that tape. Been a long time since I seen me getting a real good wooping.:D

    regards

    Pat
     
  9. Jayevan79

    Jayevan79 New Member

    Your narration of the previous WEKAF tournaments DO NOT at all coincide with the matches I watched during the recently concluded 2005 WEKAF tournament. Twas, as John J would say, 'battle of the Michellin Men'. In fact it wasn't only 1 person beside me who loudly thought - If that is how they fight, I wanna join in and beat the heck out of them!
     
  10. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Well I can't comment on the 2005 event, or any international event after 2002 really as I retired from WEKAF in 2002. But I know what you mean. But I know what you mean, as I have since watched a couple of the events in GB since and I feel the majority are just what I like to call stick bashers. I think a lot of this is down to 2 reasons. 1. Too many of the good rules have been taken out in the interests of safety and 2. Too many people train soley for the sport and try to win at all costs to the detriment of the art. The art I am affraid for most has left the sport. Which is a shame.

    Regards

    Pat
     
  11. bart

    bart New Member

    2005

    Hey There,

    As in every tournament it depends on which ring you're watching and who is doing the fighting. And since it looks that easy, there shouldn't be any reason not to go ahead and give it a run. In my opinion, that is just fine. WEKAF sparring is also about encouraging participation. But don't be fooled into thinking that it won't hurt and the people don't know how to hit. Before I developed a bit more I broke several fingers and knuckles on both hands and had my thighs pounded sometimes leaving bruises that lasted for months. Those were good lessons learned.

    Some of the loudest critics of WEKAF sparring have never even strapped on the jacket and given it a go. Instead they wrap pillows around sticks and claim that is more real than wrapping pillows around your body. But that's another subject.
     
  12. Jayevan79

    Jayevan79 New Member


    That's just how the spectators felt, and they were really loud I am sure the organizers heard. The actions were just too fast with the players focused at hitting and hitting and not defense knowing that even if it does hurt, the armour still cushions the blows and it would not hurt as much. Then again, without the armour, there wouldn't be anything to watch as I'm sure the fight will end in seconds, even before you could say 'ouch!'.

    You're right Pat, art will slowly disappearing in this Martial Art if this goes on and those concerned do not hear the loud criticisms and do something about it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2005
  13. bart

    bart New Member


    I do respect what the crowd sees and I was there so I heard it as well. But often when I encounter criticism of WEKAF it centers around these items:

    1. There's no clear winner
    2. The action is so fast that nobody can tell what is going on
    3. The emphasis is on striking and not defending
    4. The armor provides so much protection that it is not realistic


    Before I go into this let me make clear that I don't think that WEKAF is the end all be all. I think that it is just one of many worthwhile training tools.

    Now, Jayeven79, how many of those vocal people in that crowd had picked up a copy of the rules and read them? How many of those vocal people had ever strapped on the gear and tried to train the things that that particular type of sparring is training? In any type of sparring you're going to remove the "mortal" part of it and isolate something specific and then in a competition you're going to judge people on those specific things being trained. If your vocal people have never read the rules or played by them, then they're not going to know who wins, because they don't know how to play the game. So when it comes to above points 1 and 2 the problem has a lot to do with uninformed people forming opinions that are not wholly correct. Admittedly, some of the fights were awful this year and some people who won should not have, but some of them were very good and some of the people were quite formidable.

    Alot of what goes on in a WEKAF match is damage control. In my opinion that is a lot of what real violence is about as well. I'm sure that Pat and others who have been around can tell you that a lot of the strikes that get launched at you don't actually land with the power they were intended to land with because you employ your checking, body english, and footwork to lessen the damage. Many of them do not at all. But one thing about WEKAF is that there are a lot of people who are good at the Korto Kurbada. And blocking, as most people unfamiliar with Korto Kurbada understand it, is not a very effective technique. The defense against those types of strikes are subtle and hard to read if you're not familiar with them. This plays into above item 3 as well as 1 and 2.

    On to the last point about the armor. The armor provides a lot of cover, this is true. In general I spar with the jacket, a helmet, elbow pads, knee pads, gloves, and a cup. Some people really pad it up adding much more stuff. Sometimes, it's to give them an edge, other times it's to make sure that preexisting injuries don't get worse. Without talking with the person or fighting with them, you won't really know what they're motivation is. The armor removes the "mortal" part of the sparring. But regardless, hits to the thighs and hands will not necessarily end the fight quickly. Hits to the arms are the same way. In my experience too, hits to the head will not necessarily end it quickly. I've seen people cracked over the head with beer bottles, smacked on the forehead with beer mugs, and knocked in the face with a car lock. A lot of times it put them down, other times it made them mad. In all cases it made them injured, but that didn't mean they quit fighting right away.

    Anyway, my point here is that if you think you can do it, then you should. But standing on the sidelines telling everybody how bad something you've never tried is, doesn't help the art grow any.
     
  14. Jayevan79

    Jayevan79 New Member

    well, this forum is indeed serving its purpose.

    You're right about your points bart, and they're appreciated. Bottom line is, I have more respect for the guys on the floor than those on the sidelines. Still, I believe something should be done to make the sport worthy of being one for the Olympics, as I often hear from the organizers. Like any other sport, organizers should also keep in mind the sentiments of the spectators, after all they are the ones who make or break an event.

    BTW, your website is cool. I know someone who just set up a school in Ohio and who has shown interest in FMA. Will send him details about your site as I know he'd be very interested.
     
  15. bart

    bart New Member

    That is true. I do hope to some day see an aspect of FMA training in the games. I hope that it keeps at least enough realism to be on the level with Judo and Olympic style wrestling.

    Thanks for the comments on my website by the way, it's much appreciated.
     
  16. Peter Bradbury

    Peter Bradbury Valued Member

    a far off dream i think, as those in charge arent prepared to do anything about it, no matter how much they say they will.
     
  17. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    The problem lies with the sport as a whole I'm affraid, I am a great advocate of the "sport" but many on the side lines fail to see that at the end of the day it is a sport and a full contact one at that, it is the armour that makes it safe and for this more and more people have taken up FMA because of it and for that you have to take you hat off to WEKAF, it has done more inrecent years to propogate the FMA to the general public.

    But, and it is a ver big but. The sport as evloved into something of it's own which in one way is a good thing but in another is a bad thing. The small minority see it as a training tool which can give you some very important lessons, as can padded stick tournaments, each has it's benifits and it's draw backs, but I have to say as it stands at the moment the padded stick events are easier on the eye and easier to understand than the armour events. With the padded stick events a novice can see who the clear winner is, with the WEKAF events it takes an expeariance judeg / fighter too see who is the better fighter, and we all know expearianced fighters and judges are a rare thing.

    I have fought people who I have thought, why the hell are you here, yes you fast but you are hitting fresh air, and I have fought other people who have hit me so hard I have thought thank god I have the armour on. the problem lies in that more and more people are hitting fresh air and the veiwing public are now seeing this and something needs to be done.

    I still support WEKAF as a great training tool and my fighters often fight in their events, as a matter of fact I have a few fighters competing this weekend defending their British titles but not only do they have to beat there opponents they have to beat the politics too, gladly they always do well for I only train fighters and not sportsmen. And if they win or lose I don;t mind as long as they try their best for a lot of it nowadays is based on luck.

    As I have said before and I will say it again, WEKAF has a lot to offer the FMA world, it has just strayed a little and needs to get back on track. It will always have it critics no matter how good it does, it is just recieving more at the moment because it is failing the public in offering them good stickfighting.

    You also have to bear in mind that when the events are held in the Philippines 90% of the veiwing audience are FMA afficinados and we are the worst critics of all, fo if we see it failing, we know for certain that the general public who have never seen it before can surely see it failing.

    What can be done to fix it. Give the public what tey want, A full contact stick fight between 2 good sports people, do that and it will grow once again. But do not do the sport and try to win at any cost including the detrement of the art because the public will notice, as a matter of fact they are noticing hence the complaints.

    It's is true that the majority of the critics are those that have not donned the armour, but more and more veterans who have donned the armour are now criticising the sport, because like all arts it has lost it's way a little, and it is up to the fighters to put it back.

    I think it may just be a glich and it will in time rectify it's self, at least I hope so and once it does it will once again become a great vehicles for the promotion of the FMA as a whole.

    As for WEAKF becoming and Olympic event, I think this is but a pipe dream, we had this debate back in 1992 and in 1994 in Cebu the Philippine Olympic Committee helped to run the WEKAF Mayors Cup in Cebu, I stood next to a high ranking WEKAF official during a conversation with the Philippine Olympic Commisioner regarding including the WEKAF format as a demonstration sport in the Olympics, now the Official was reletavily keen up until this WEKAF Official said "we don't need you, we will become bigger than you":eek: .

    The same pipe dream has been raised at every WEKAF world championships ever since and the same thing has been done ever since, Nothing.

    If it ever does become an Olympic sport I would be more than happy, but on my expeariance I cant see it happening in my life time, but then again what do I know. I could be wrong and this is one occasion I hope I am.

    regards

    Pat
     
  18. shootodog

    shootodog restless native

    hmmm....fma in the olympics. on one hand it would be a dream, on the other hand there will be much bloodshed when the old guys come together to discuss rules.
     
  19. Peter Bradbury

    Peter Bradbury Valued Member

    Well having recently attended the WEKAF british championships, i can say that things are looking slightly better than i was expecting, although judging and refereing was not perfect it has been better than i have seen at recent events. There were some good fight (id like to think mine were among them), from what was a very poor turnout.

    Dont really know what this has to do with much but felt like adding a bit more....

    Peter
     
  20. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Well what it has to do with much is this, if is looking slightly better than you were expecting than that is a benefit as opposed to looking slightly worse. which in turn means it will benefit all future comeptitors who take part.

    Some improvment in anything is better than no improvement at all. Or even worse is it could have got worse than you expected


    regards

    Pat
     

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