The Kinesiology of the Pecs is to bring the arms across the chest...the Kinesiology of the shoulder(s) front is to raise the arms in an frontal upward direction....side is side direction and rear towards an upward rear. I know this is a simplified explination however much more useful than explaining movement starting from a (Synapse). I have been performing this exercise since the late 70s. Under the direction of a Physical Therapist. The shoulders suffer Myopathology and damage to soft tissue because people tend to not work the shoulders in the correct way or choose to neglect them in their work out...or not work them at all. Because of this when they get on a Pec deck and or a bench press and start to lift weight...and some try to lift way too much...they neglect to understand what role the shoulders play in both of these movements causing injury. I and the students who workout with me have not suffered any ill effect from this exercise, however, I have had people who worked out with me who had previous had shoulder problems and or surgery that when they worked out with me (specifically our shoulder exercises) that have stated, "wow we never use to work our shoulders like this." Some on this thread stated about dips and weighted dips...we love and do this exercise too. These are just decline movements that isolate the lower part of the pec and tricepts. Actually if performed incorrectly can be more hazardous to the shoulders than Flys. If you don't want to do flys or peck deck don't do them...however I will choose to follow the direction of a doctor P.S. the Doctor is my uncle who is a Physical Therapist and a Naturopathic Doctor ( Dr. Daniel Sims ). Kew-Do If you choose not to work out you
I would post thousands of links showing you how it damages the shoulders, but its pointless. Just google it. Dips, Bench, weighted pushups. All infinatly better than pec dec.
I must say when i was about 18 i was on the pec deck and i hurt my left shoulder on it, i was on my last rep really struggling and it moved and kind of popped. Still have trouble with it sometimes and im 22 now. If hold my arm out straight to the side parrallel to the floor and then lift it upwards, i still get a little pain and tightness.
Cool, I agree with the above exercise for their effectiveness. I love Dips and Bench, my favorites. I love flys and have been doing them for years. I am 45 and still have no problems with my shoulders because I train smart. If you don't like them don't do them. Many of the Professional body builders I know use them, not for strength but for more of a "forming" exercise for the pecs. Obviously if you over exert yourself, you can hurt yourself with any exercise. To each his own ! ! ! Good luck with your workouts...
Flyes I don't have much of a problem with, in fact they are one of the best chest builders going IMO, but the pec dec is just awful for almost everyone. In your shoulder joint you want stability, where as this exercise puts strain on the ligaments as the humerus is put into a compromised position in a fixed range of motion. It seems like you're fairly stuck on this as an exercise so you keep doing it if you want and I will still believe the opinions of many other top class coaches. If you want to take the opinions of one man over many others who are much more qualified, then that's up to you. I actually agree about dips though, they can be awful for the shoulders but more so because people don't actively contract their traps and their shoulders end up higher than their ears at the bottom of the movement. Many movements are contraindicted for many people eg. overhead pressing with a larger acromion process, but there are far more people who physiologically cannot deal with the pec dec. Besides, most people do too much interior rotation anyway. The biggest reason for shoulder problems is actually more likely down to a serious imbalance between the generally much stronger internal rotators (pectorals, lats, ant. deltoids) and the external rotators which are much smaller and generally worked much less. Explaining the movement starting from a synapse? Can you explain what you mean?
Explaining kinetic movement starting with the stimuli of the muscle. Hi Naughty Night...I took your advice to look into "Googling" just to see what I could find....what I found was that ALL exercises can be harmful to many parts of the body!!! The most identified are Bench Presses...Cable Pull downs behind the back, front side lateral dumbell lifts for the shoulder, cable raises for the shoulder,....ANY type of Dips....Sit Ups, Dead Lifts, Leg extensions, ANY Squat techniques, etc....etc... etc...etc... The key factor is moderation!!!, and know your body. Additionally, I would not be looking towards "Google.com" to get information such as an important subject that could effect your whole life!!! Get your Information from a professional or a Doctor!!!! Part of my Masters degree was Physiology, I had many techniques that I was doing pretty well verified after this class. have you ever taken formal education in this field? I think we both can agree that ANY exercise done incorrectly or using more weight than what the body is conditioned to use can have dangerous effects. To just label "Peck deck" as a dangerous exercise is not seeing the whole picture.
I agree with what you first said. Any exercise can be dangerous. However, the pec dec has a disproportionate amount of risk to the benefit that can be gained from it. Questions to ask when doing an exercise: 1. What is the reason for doing this exercise? 2. Is this exercise going to give me the most benefit compared to other exercises? 3. Is this exercise more/less likely to cause injury to me? 4. Do I NEED to concentrate on this area or on others? For 99% of trainees, the answer for the pec dec to the last 3 questions would be no. These would be my personal answers: 1. Increase pectoral size/strength 2. No. There are many better exercises out there for the internal rotation movement and pectoral isolation. 3. It is more likely than other equivalents as it puts the humerus in a poor position relative to the glenoid fossa. 4. No. I need to work more on external rotations for shoulder health and I already do enough compound exercise work for this movement pattern/muscle group. Let me answer these questions for the bench press. 1. Increase pectoral/tricep/anterior shoulder strength and size 2. Yes. It is a large compound exercise which can use a heavy weight. 3. Risk of injury can be high if performed with disproportionate level of volume to pulling movements. However, compared to other exercises for this movement pattern it is second to none for results. 4. Yes. It is a staple of most programs as it is one of the best exercises for this pattern. It's all about balance and whether the exercise is worth it. IMO being a machine it is virtually worthless compared to free weight versions anyway (especially if you are after performance rather than size), but aside from that it is an over-used movement pattern anyway in 99% of trainees and less emphasis needs to be put on it. Take a look around t-nation.com for some more expert opinions on the pec dec from some very experienced coaches. This article may be a good start: http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle.do?article=07-032-training Edit - Just found a nice quote by Eric Cressey, a hugely respected coach who has released a ton of articles on joint health and lifting: Taken from this discussion: http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=545635
Having been through the charming nightmare that is shoulder surgery, I'll give my $.02 for what it's worth. I only use the standard "pec deck" for light weights. There's something about the positioning of the exercise which is murder on my shoulder. The seat has to be in the right position, the arm pads have to be right, and the weights have to be just right. I find that dumbbells are a lot easier on my shoulders. Exception: Rotator pec deck, which better mimics the natural movement of the arms.
Hello Ad McG.. I Liked reading your posts. everyone has their own path. The most important thing is that the person has an athletic path -vs- no exercising at all, so, anyone who works out smart with the right information and the right exercises over a period of time will excell, if the exercise doesn't work for you don't do them. "For me", unless you were one of my students, I would not tell anyone which exercises they have to do, or what exercises should be done to get this result, they should get that from a professional not a book or the internet. I have been working out for many years based upon information taught to me. If others choose a different workout.... super, it's better than not working out at all...just ensure you are working out smart and getting your advice from a professional. Questions from Ad McG.. 1. What is the reason for doing this exercise? As far as Peck deck and cable cross overs...Cause I luv it! 2. Is this exercise going to give me the most benefit compared to other exercises? No...I like flat bench and dips, but sure like to use a lower weight to round the pecs out....Nothing hits them "FOR ME" Like my Peck Deck and cable cross overs...."I been a luvin these here exercises for years!" My students have as well and continue to perform these movements with great results as well as reaping the benefits when we grapple. If anyone hear doesn't do them it's OK don't... No disrepect, I would much rather get my advice from a Doctor than a forum especially if you look at the profiles of the folks and what profession they're in, not that there is anything wrong with your chosen profession, just take a look at the advice given, then look at the individual's profession....it's kind of comical, that's why I love MAP, it's always good for a good laugh!!!!!!! I still love all of you guys on here though, this is the best Forum I have ever had the pleasure of visiting and enjoy all of your post.....I thank you ALL for that!! Kew-Do
Hi Gangrelchilde, so glad to see that you're still around! I agree with your post Gangrelchilde and support the lower weight side especially if ( Performing physical therapy, and this therapy has been ordered by a Doctor. I have witneeded a few cases where this type of exercise has been very beneficial for the patient. kew-Do
Cable crossovers are ok as an isolational exercise for the pecs, probably better than full DB flyes anyway. Cables definitely have their uses, especially as the ROM isn't fixed like a machine. What do you mean by this?
i use the pec deck as a shaping exercise. do it with a small amount of weight, and in a slow contolled manner. it is a shaping exercise , like cable crossovers, and should not be used to build mass or bulk. i 've done flyes forever and i've gotten better results from the pec deck, form and control is key to using the pec deck. what i've seen is people jump on it , load it up with weight and recklessly bang out reps, that is were injuries occur. just my 2 cents, but like everyone else has said to each their own
I think a lot might depend on the pec deck machine also. Ive been on some that just dont feel comfortable at all - like im having to reach too much or it feels to cramped. ive been on others where instead of having a pad to push with your forearm/elbow, it just had handles to grab and it had a moving joint on the arm so it was more free, that felt much better.
I agree, Peck deck should not be for power but shaping, that could be why some have experienced an increase in injury. Furthermore if a person allows their arms to become stretched too far back on the peck deck, this can cause soft tissue impingement. Kew-Do
I've experienced the same thing, additionally, they design these machines incorrectly so that you are pressing in with your elbows, or your elbows come together on the contraction of the movement. I perform this exercise where my fist come together on contraction, it almost looks like I'm hugging a tree. Super great exercise for shaping the chest, especially in the middle, my dips give me a super deep cut underneath my Pecs! And last but not least, diet to ensure you cut right. Kew-Do
See that's similar to the one I mentioned when I said "rotator pec deck". There are no pads for the arms. It's a handle, and everything on the handle can be adjusted to fit each individual. It exactly mimics the motions involved in a fly or a cable cross-over. It's not a bad machine, it moves away from the standard "place elbows here and squeeze" pec decks we are all familiar with.
Not a power exercise but bringing all of the core exercises all together. through the range of motion of ther Peck deck
I'm guessing doing large amounts of reps to get definition etc. It's kinda a classical thing, was a fave of Arnie etc to get the sharp sinewy look
