Weapons defense?

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Kframe, Jun 28, 2014.

  1. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Hey guys. Im new to karate and had a interesting question.

    Im really enjoying the hard work and style(matsubayashi shorin ryu).. I never honestly thought id ever enjoy it but here I am.

    How does karate(shorin ryu) approach weapons defense/offense? Say a knife attack? I have been watching some karate videos and karate seams to have a start and stop feeling to it, which I don't know If its just my newb level of doing things but isn't that bad for defense against weapons?

    So what are some good examples of how karate deals with knife attacks or bludgeoning attacks? Does karate teach how to use the knife? I can see some of the movements also translating to weapons work.

    I know there is kobudo, but I didn't know how karate handled such things. Thanks for the information guys!
  2. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    There's lots of crazy bunkai in Karate that shady senseis will try to pass off as weapon defence.

    Unless you're training how to turn on your heel 180 degrees and burst into a sprint, they're not teaching you high percentage knife defence.
  3. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    In Shotokan , at least , it's pretty much the same as empty hand , step off line counter , get out of dodge.
  4. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Most karate knife defense is absolutely horrible - but they are certainly not alone in that
  5. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Thanks for the advice guys. Hmm maybe ill just have to get a shock knife and figure it out.. More fun that way anyways.
  6. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    The key is for your attacker to keep their arm completely straight.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1JOhuuaYpg"]Jim Carrey's Karate School of Self Defence! - YouTube[/ame]
  7. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    My question is, I the set knife defense "drills" they do are crap, why do them? One thing I have learned from reading various MA blogs is, that we should use the skills we have.

    From my understanding, the defenses in karate start very hard and get softer. I noticed some movement similarities to karate during some FMA drills. The difference is that the fma guys are all stop and start in sudden bursts, they do everything smoothly and with a flow.

    So it seams that, in order to actually have good knife defense, using set techs is not the way to go. I assume that playing with them in a more spontaneous fashion is whats called for.
  8. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    The problems seem twofold , though related.
    Karate doesn't incorporate any knife attacks , so the "attacks" used tend to be poor , the defences tend to be variations of common attacks , thrusts based on lunge punches , overhead attacks based on hammer fists etc , but , distance and weapon retention aren't really adequately addressed , so we end up with the rubbish that's out there.
  9. AussieJKDguy

    AussieJKDguy Valued Member

    Spot on, This also relates to the way they defend unarmed IMO, who attacks you with a twisiting punch from the hip in a wide stance on the street and yet majoirty if not al Karateka practise this ritual to deliver there techniques against.
  10. GaryWado

    GaryWado Tired

    Wado-ryu has a series of formalised knife defences or “Tanto-dori”.

    TBH though, I don’t think anyone views them as self defences against a knife attack, but instead they are seen as forms that explore the same fundamental principles that are found in our Kata and unarmed pair work.

    The difference though is the adjustment of “ma-ai” with the added pressure of an edged weapon thrown in to the equation.
  11. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Well, the formal defense techs might be crap in karate, but is it possible you think to get a good training knife and a good partner and sorta work up your own thing?

    I have been watching some video's of knife attacks and the attacks them selvs are not overly complicated. As was stated I am beginning to think that it is the way the karate people are attacking with the knife that is the problem. Starting to far away, not commiting to the attack, bad angles.

    I have a plan, im going to keep cross training fma when I can and learn to apply my karate to knives.
  12. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    If you choose to stand your ground against a guy with a knife, you are almost certainly getting stabbed. A guy pulls a knife in you, you hand over you wallet and keep your mouth shut - that's how you defend yourself against a knife.
  13. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Doesn't always work like that here sadly. Even if you do what your told, sometimes they stab anyways.

    I know its best to just givem what they want however, that does not mean I should skip trying to apply what I know to defending my self against them should I? I understand what your saying guys, not trying to fight. Just saying, I may not beable to get my ccw, or they may decide to kill me anyways, so I need to be able to deal with it.
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2014
  14. Kurai

    Kurai Valued Member

    Doesn't mean don't be prepared to escalate. Bad situation to start with. Not presenting resistance, might mean an end to the situation if one cannot readily escape. It also buys time in which to prepare your attack/defense.
  15. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    I agree Kurai. All im asking is, if it is wise to try and a learn to defend against weapons. That's all.
  16. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Its not worth the effort. If you're training for self defence, you should spend your time sensibly. The chance of needing to defend yourself against a knife is tiny compared to the chance of being drawn into a fist fight.
  17. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Unless you are in prison under a hit squad
  18. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    For me it's a question of percentages. Take these as just for the sake of argument and being just for illustration.

    Let's say behaviour and decision making takes away 80% of possible situations.

    Then situational awareness takes away 10%

    Then verbal skills take away 6%

    Then physical skills should address the remaining %.

    They should take as little account as possible of whether the attacker is armed or not, because Hick's law tells us we need as few choices as possible to act as quickly as possible. We need something that works in all situations.

    So we should learn movements against movements, if that makes sense? Which can be what some karate does. The question is then, are the attacking movements used realistic and do the defensive movements work whether it's a punch or a straight stab?

  19. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    Somewhat agree.

    I would like to add, unlike practicing in a vacuum; punches and stab movements are not facile. In real encounters, punches and stabbing can be in rapid succession

    Training in weapons hasn't guarantees
  20. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    I think we do agree :)


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