Weapons before Hands?

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by Freeform, Feb 22, 2002.

  1. waya

    waya Valued Member

    That would be excellent thanks :)
    If he is open to it I could probably get down there once or twice a month to work with him. Or if he has any other suggestions I would love to hear them.
    I know I had heard of some of Remy Presas's students holding seminars in Raleigh, which is an hr away. I had an opportunity to attend a seminar by Mr. Presas himself the last time he was here but didn't find out until afterward (which I now regret beyond belief). And my instructor in HKD also had chances to attend seminars by Mr. Presas he was unable to attend which he is upset about now. That was a huge loss to the world of the arts.
    I haven't looked much into attending these since then because I do not know who is who as far as his students go.

  2. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    Same request Mike. I've not come across anyone teaching Silat in Scotland. Do you know anyone of pedigree in the UK?
  3. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    Go to this page: http://www.btinternet.com/~harimau/instructors.htm

    The system is called "Minangkabau Harimau." At that website, you'll find far more detailed information than I can give you here.

    I've attended a seminar with Guru de Bordes and he is excellent. What little I saw of the system was very good ... hell on the legs, though :)

    Regards, Mike
  4. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    Paul Deans in Harrogate, and Charles Harvey in Doncaster are both accessible during my working week. Only 250 miles away. Thanks Mike.

    What did Guru de Bordes do to your legs?
  5. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    LOL ... it wasn't what "he" did to them (though there's some pain there too) ... it was the warmups that killed my legs :) Harimau uses a lot of very low stances. In the warmups we simply moved from one low stance to the next. By the end of the warmups my legs were limp noodles :)

    Edit: Oh, and glad I could be of help :)

  6. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    Pesilat, seeing as you have mentioned stances.....

    Do weapon based systems make stance and posture more important then in empty hand styles, or does the fact that you have weapons allow you to be less concerned with rudimentary foundation?

    Incidentally, ask Cooler about his experience with Hung Gar stance training. It would bring tears to a glass eye!
  7. Cooler

    Cooler Keepin The Peace Supporter

    *LOL* It still brings tears to my eyes at the mention of it.

  8. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    Hmm ... good question. I would say that they put different emphasis, not necessarily more or less.

    As in empty-hand systems, each system approaches it differently. The FMA tend not to think in terms of "stance" but in terms of "footwork" ... which ends up producing the same thing ... but at low levels in the training it sets up a different mindset. A lot of emphasis is placed on footwork, though.

    I've heard one FMA instructor talk about doing nothing but footwork drills for the first year of his training.

    The real difference that the weapon makes is more in the spatial relations with the opponent ... so it's not really that the stances are more or less important ... just that they're applied differently so different emphasis is placed on them.

    Not sure if I actually answered your question or not ... but, for the time being, that's my story and I'm sticking to it ;)

  9. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.


    Would you say that, picking up a weapon restricts the individual to the limitations of that weapon?

    'I picked up the sword, so I never thought about pushing the guy down the well' type of thing'?

    None of these are 'trick' questions. I am learning by asking!

  10. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    This is going to come out kind of like a Bruce Lee thing :) For the average person ... yes. For someone who has trained with weapons, possibly. For someone who *understands* weapons ... no.

    Most people (untrained, poorly trained, or with limited exposure to weapons) will do this. It is the same as a chess player who loses both knights, a bishop and a rook to protect his queen. Or the player who, on losing his queen, is mentally finished. People have a tendency to get so hung up on the weapon (and really this happens on both sides, the guy with the weapon and the defender) that they forget there are other options.

    The only way to get over this, IMHO, is to train with weapons until you understand them and transcend this mental trap. Once you've transcended it, you learn to spot it in other people and can use it against them.

    Floro Villabrille was a legendary stickfighter in the Philippines and in Hawaii. He fought in a lot of "death matches" (this term is heard a lot in FMA ... but it doesn't mean, as we would think, "fight to the death" ... it means a full contact fight with stick, or sometimes stick and knife, with no protection ... death was a high possibility and did happen ... but usually they ended in a KO, submission, or resignation). He was undefeated ... but then, a lot of them you hear about were ... obviously never fought each other :) Anyway ... he won a lot of his fights, not with the stick, but with his left hook. A lot of people get in a stick fight and forget that a good punch can KO them as quick as a stick.

    Anyway ... back to your specific question: yes, this is a problem ... but the only way around it is through training.

    If you never pick up a weapon then you won't fall into the trap of forgetting *you* have other tools. But if you aren't used to dealing with weapons then you'll likely be just as susceptible as anyone to forgetting that your opponent has other tools aside from the weapon in his hand.

    I believe that the best way to learn to defend against weapons is to become proficient with them and gain intimate and applied knowledge of their strengths and weaknesses. Without it your weapon defenses will be like trying to drive a car from reading a book. No matter how good the defenses are, without a "real" (as opposed to "theory-based") understanding of weapons there will be large gaps in understanding in not only how to use them but in how to deal with them.

    Having said that, I'll make the caveat that I'm sure there are exceptions to this. But I know I'm not one of them. So I figure my best bet to learning how to defend myself against a weapon is to learn how to use a weapon.

    And maybe I'm making erroneous assumptions ... but I don't think so. I've seen a lot of really good martial artists make stupid mistakes when a weapon is involved. Mistakes that, in reality, would get them killed or seriously injured (depends on the weapon). And sometimes that mistake is to forget about the left hook or the kick or the headbutt or, to go back to your analogy, the well behind them :) In short, things they would *never* do if their opponent didn't have a weapon.

  11. Andy Murray

    Andy Murray Sadly passed away. Rest In Peace.

    I liked the bit in Indiana Jones, where the guy is flailing at him with two swords. He drops his whip and shoots him!
  12. Krysdaggr

    Krysdaggr New Member

    Hi, I am Linde and new to the forum and the concept of how it works so if i error here just let me know. The limited FMA styles I have dealt with usually teach weapons, stick then advance to bladed then to empty hand. I have even been told by 2 noted Escrima/kai/arnis instructors that their styles were the only one that taught empty hand. Of course i knew that to be an error becuase my style, Largo Mano Escrima teaches empty hand last. However I know that alot of the styles were preserved through the use of dance. The Phillipines were constantly being overran and invaded whether from within, neighboring clans or from other countries. As they were "conquered" each conqueror would take away any weapons they had. Leaving them with their farm tools and their bodies and minds. Several times esp under the Moros they were forbade to study any martial art so they did "right under their noses" with dance.

    Thanks for letting me be a member of this group. Linde
  13. Melanie

    Melanie Bend the rules somewhat.. Supporter

    Hello Linde,

    Welcome to the forum. Nice to have more women on the forum.

    Look forward to reading your further input :)

  14. Pablo

    Pablo New Member

    Linde wrote:
    "...under the Moros they were forbade to study any martial art so they did "right under their noses" with dance..."

    I thought that this was done under the Spanish rather than under the Majapit Empire (Moros).

    Not that I am saying that the Moros were all that easy to get along with either .

    You mentioned that you study Largo Mano, is that under Arcenio Advincula?

  15. Krysdaggr

    Krysdaggr New Member

    Hi, Yes as I sometimes do in talk I did in writing mix up what I say and what I meant. I meant the Moros hid alot of practice through the use of dane under the Spanish rule. As did other practiciers of their forbidden art.

    Yes, I train with Sensei Advincula in several styles including Largo Mano Escrima since 1985.

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