We don't need no stinking instruction!

Mark.do you think that i could and cannot do the deep classical and in you opinion correct taijutsu that you are no doubt spending your time trying to perfect?unfortunately when i used them in real combat situations i found them to be effective .so i no longer use or practice them,that does not mean i cant.of course i could just be saying that couldnt i?however ive been back and cant find a question unanswered.apart from the ones i put to you(we will ignore them then shall we?

 

Dude, you really need to get hooked on phonics before your next post; the words in your posts make about as much sense as the movements in your videos. I can't understand what the hell you're trying to say.

Now....where was i?

:bang:


Mark Spada

 

I do. I doubt that you can do them properly. This is why they didn't work for you.

Also, I don't know why I need to point this out to you, but if you are doubting Hatsumi's knowledge/abilities because he trained once a week, for many hours each time, with a master, while exchanging correspondence consistently throughout that period, what does it say about your abilities in comparison when you would train with a group of people, occasionally with Soke, once a year or so, over a period of less than a decade? (I am guessing here about your time with Soke, but I imagine I am not far off).

 

Listen, I say what I feel and well that is pretty much it. If you like it and agree with it, great. Hit the thanks button and read on. If you don't, that is just as great. But I'd prefer you'd say why and counter it with your view so that we can understand why. I love debate and discussion, heck it's the only reason I am on these forums. If I came on here to see everyone just sitting around telling eachother how great they are and our system is...I'd walk, because I'd probably fall asleep by the 3rd page.

What interested me about your post was not that you dislike me, (believe me, I can live with that) but more so the above comment.

Are you saying you would choke me the way a little girl would choke me...or that you like to choke little girls?

Man, that's just creepy, really.

 

The amount of years that Takamatsu-sensei learned from Toda Shinryuken was around 10 years; ages 9 to 20/21 (1898 to 1908). The age that boys from warrior families started training was around 9 years old and was awarded their menkyo kaiden when they became of age (15/16 years old). Menkyo kaiden were also awarded in 10/11 years or less. Especially, during times of wars or when the country was expanding their sphere of influence/building up for wars, as in the Russo-Japanese War. There were other koryu in history that awarded menkyo kaiden within 5 years, so this was not uncommon.

If you knew your history of traditional Japanese martial arts then you would not find it strange the time and age of Takamatsu-sensei's learning. Those uneducated in the West have a hard time believing it due to ignorance on their history of Japan.

 

I have to say it is not just the history, but the culture.

Most of the folks like George want to put things into western frames to make themselves sound better. But really, 50 or more years ago if you were born into a family you would be expected to conform and do what you parents told you far more than the typical Bujinkan member now.

I was taught Kyogen by a guy who is now a living national treasure of Japan. He once showed us an NHK documentary of how he was training his child. Even though it was a modern setting, the stuff the poor kid went through could probably be termed child abuse in America. And the Japanese watching it with me all commented on how things had gotten softer and less demanding since the last generation.

So, to my eyes, anyone equating themselves and their experience with what the guys 100 years ago went through are rather egotistical in addition to being quick to make comments about things they know nothing about.

Still waiting on Garth before I make other comments. I just wanted to add to the excellent post by George "my father is Mr Kohler" Kohler."

 

Very true.

I agree both with Mr.Roley and Mr.Kohler.

We are getting softer and the majority of us would probably get our asses handed to us in H2H against the average soldier/warrior 300-400 years ago (western or eastern).

But on the flipside the average person today has more knowledge and education than royalty 400 years ago. Having a strong tough body these days isn't really such a big deal considering all the force equalizers like guns, tasers, batons and so on.

This infatuation with H2H is actually really silly considering that even the biggest pro wrestler, rikishi or Heavyweight MMA fighter would still get killed very easily with a $20 dollar knife or blood filled syringe.

In the greater scheme of things a menkyo kaiden in an unarmed system pales in camparison to a week long firearms course and a licence to carry.

Sad but true, get with the times.

 

LOL

Anyway, you bring up a good point that it is also the culture.

Just imagine someone from another country (except for Canada) and in his 20's trying to learn football in the US (the real one with the goal posts... just kidding to all that play the other one). To us it is almost second nature since it is ingrained in us from the time were born. At least for me, anyway.

We had two kids from Norway that moved into my neighborhood... It was comical to watch them throw the ball. It took them like 3-4 years to break their throwing habit.

I would assume it was the same for the children from warrior families to be the same. And even in the last 90-80 years with kendo and judo being a part of the school system.

 

DON ROLEY PM

As some of you are aware as you have been copied in I have received a very lengthy PM (Actually 2 PMs) from Don Roley this morning. These PMs are in relation to myself asking for Don to demonstrate his background and experience in competition/MMa/BJJ and real life combat experience (i.e. hand to hand combat or with knives etc) see my previous posts.

I have this morning PMed Don Roley for permision to place those PMs here on the forum for all to see, before i answer his points.

I have also asked why Hissatsu (Who I believe has also received a PM from Don Roley) was not copied in.

I await the reply from Don Roley before I copy (Unedited) his PM to myself on this forum.

To do so without his permission would be the wrong thing to do.

But I am more than willing to place it here once I get pernission from Don to do so, in fact i am looking forward to it.

Awaiting in gleeful anticipation

Garth

 

Posting PMs are against the TOS Gary.

Don't think it matters if you get "permission"

Why not just give him an answer? Isn't this type of thing avoiding the issue?

 

Hi dean

No not avoiding the issue, in fact quite the contrary. I just want all this in the open so EVERYONE on this forum can see what I have been sent.

I will then reply to all of Dons points in full.

To be honest I really dont know why he didnt post the PM here himself. (well actually I do). But if he want to make his PM absolutely official and above board so everone can see it (After all according to him he has nothing to hide and is going to make me look a fool) then I see no reason why it cannot be posted here.

I also find it kind of strange that only certian people were copied in to this e mail. Why not for example Daniel Weidman or Mark Spada i.e people that have views contrary to Dons. After all if we are going to make this fair and above board surely things should be brought out into the open for ALL TO SEE.

Garth

 

Don didn't send me anything.

Just FYI.

-Daniel

 

Ok strange that he hasnt sent you one as it relates to me asking Don for his experience of competition and real combat experiences as you yourself have also done.

Cant say too much as the PM is private, or at least till Don agres for it to be placed here on the Forum

Garth

 

This is better than Eastenders.

 

ok 2 years out.i know the training was more intense and you absorb more at an early age ect. the point i am trying to make is what about the other ryu?so how much could he pass on to someone who is now regarded as the gold standard in them?PS in my last post i meant to say ineffective not "effective" sorry

 

i accept your point i may well not have been able to do them properly .but as my priority was to not lose in a real fight and i didnt want to risk another 15 years of effort only to find (having in the meantime had a few good hidings)it still didnt work for me. my abilities or lack of them are of no consequence as i am not regarded as the gold standard for 9 ryu and i am not attacking Hatsumi just making some points that as usual seem to upset the some purists

 

Wow, thanks for the reply Don. I just had my brother-in-law over for dinner (it was my wife's birthday) and we were discussing this thread. He is a second degree black belt in Taekwondo. He studied at a very old school club (for the Melb TKD practitioners that may read this, his instructor was Mr Roe [not sure on spelling]) and trained there from 5 years of age until 19 (he is 36 now).

He was saying that he can see why you would come to those conclusions (sparring being overly competitive, leading to ego, winning only mentality etc) as TKD is usually very competitive based. Many schools rely on their reputation in tournaments to bring in students, with trophy cabinets being the centrepeice of many a school. The training for many is all about points, not self defence as it is treated as a sport primarily (no, he's not saying all schools).

This could explain your viewpoint.

I disagree, I would say TKD is as competitive as a martial art can get for many.

I'll leave that to others as I don't consider myself much of a swordsman and have never claimed to be. I am quite good with a tanto or a hanbo, but my practical application with it will probably look very different to yours so I wouldn't ever compare it, or make fun of it.

I will say however that the experiences you have had in TKD and the spattering in Judo you mention are probably very different from the sparring you will see in a normal class of a Muay Thai Hall or an MMA gym. Melbourne is agreat example where there are very few mma professional or even amature fights but loads of good gyms, so you get people training for the love of it and for self defence/fitness more so that to enter a comp.

Why? I just wanted to know, have you ever worked a door, done some security, been in a school yard brawl, pub fight etc...what was the experience like, etc...from there my next questions were going to be for you to explain your emotions, how you reacted, what type of attack and if you had already known taijutsu, how you dealt with it...thats all.

How often a week did you train?
thanks
Nick

 

There are a lot of things you say that make me shake my head... but when you called Soke an "old man writing kanji" I pretty much wrote you off as being too disrespectful to have intelligent discourse with.

And I am okay with creepy. Let's just call it the latter and hope I never catch you wearing your flower print sundress.

 

Well, hate to break it to you, but Soke is a man...and he's old...and he writes Kanji. And I wasn't having a go at soke there anyway...I was talking about the people that go to get a peice of paper from him just so that they can say "yup...got that from the grandmaster himself *lifts black belt*...when I was in japan ya'know" more so than actually going to learn something.

people take things as they want I guess. And some people are just way too sensitive. Not my way.

 

Wow this is like a soap opera! Rubber Tanto's posting of the sink picture is very apt!