Watching Space

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu Resources' started by MattK, Jul 24, 2005.

  1. Dale Seago

    Dale Seago Matthew 7:6

  2. oni_sensei

    oni_sensei Valued Member

    So basically, if we were say the white area in that picture represented the opponent, the "safe" area is in the black?
  3. Dale Seago

    Dale Seago Matthew 7:6

    Shift your perspective and view the white area as the space between two opponents. That is the area you need to properly shape and manipulate in order to affect your opponent.
  4. Bouk Teef

    Bouk Teef Valued Member

    Last edited: Aug 1, 2005
  5. rubberband

    rubberband Valued Member

    kukan questions...

    would an example of this method be placing yourself outside your opponents forearm as he reaches for you so that your opponents own arm blocks his ability to effectively follow up and forces him to use a large movement to continue his attack?

    Is it that you control his movements because of his "need" to keep a certain combative relationship with you? OR asked another way Are you using your opponents desire to direct the conflict on his terms by maintaining a comfortable positional relationship against him?

    Is this Kukan an extension of the "juji shime" Hatsumisensei describes in his "Tiajutsu" book... not a choke but rather a restriction of the whole body?

    take care, steve
  6. hatsie

    hatsie Active Member Supporter

    na he's an american, so it's down side up, get it (two by fours) he he he.

    he is also missing his ski n' doo.

    i'm also scottish born and bread, maybole in ayrshire (go the burky!) where you from steve?
  7. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned


    Nice to see you back on here, get bored with Kutaki did you???:D

    What you been up to?
  8. hatsie

    hatsie Active Member Supporter

    hi greg, it's a bit of a cat fight there at the moment, he he. i havn't really left here but all of a sudden it asked me to log in, i couldn't remember my password doh!

    the kukan stuff here is very interesting, way beyond me, but interesting none the less.
  9. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    Have a look at the old threads, there was one on the kukan which had some good idea's on there even from the BBD'ers
  10. hatsie

    hatsie Active Member Supporter

    aahhhrrrr....... the bbd'ers ! (i hiss and form a cross with my fingers in front of me) he he he. i'll go and have a peek, ta.
  11. Dale Seago

    Dale Seago Matthew 7:6

    If you look at the handle down near my right hand, though, you'll see I'm wearing a 13-inch-bladed dirk. . .it's an older style, the sort that was being carried around 1700:


    I generally only wear a sgian dubh on the very rare occasions that I'm not wearing the dirk (which usually means Japan); when I do, it's the "Mini Culloden" from Cold Steel Inc. I've also worn this sgian in the Hombu in Japan, where it was admired by several shihan:


    Apart from its other uses, it also happens to make a well-balanced little thrower. :)
  12. hatsie

    hatsie Active Member Supporter

    cool dale, straight out the sock and into the throat!, which would be very 'chi no kata' like, which is a nice throw also.

    slight drift, on throwing... iv'e had a 'working' theori about the distance between the target and the throw being as follows; two stride's for a 'blade' throw or multiples thereof, and 'odd' strides ie. 3, 5 etc. for a handle throw. with this method (my dad showed me at our 'butt n ben',lol' when i went home at xmas) i have had good results with most steak type knives, screwdrivers, chisels etc. maybe 90% success with a pretty good grouping. (the coolest was spearing an apple with a small steak knive) i find learning the distance is much the same as, say, picking up any length bo and striking with the last few inches.(as clearly you can't pace out each throw) only minor adjustments being reqd. as to the length of the particular blade.

    do you think i'm onto something or just lucky?, and is knowing the distance/space using the kukan??
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2005
  13. pgm316

    pgm316 lifting metal

    Interesting thread. I've never thought about space in this way!

    Always considered it as two seperate things, the opponent and distance between you and opponent.

    But looking at in one way must be more efficient.....

    Have a you got a set of principles on how you deal with the information on space as you see it changing?
  14. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

  15. hatsie

    hatsie Active Member Supporter

    i usually brag about my 12 incher, but ah well, everything is bigger in america
  16. rubberband

    rubberband Valued Member

    More questions...

    Could someone please go back to page 3 of this thread and answer my questions...

    also... when you talk about balls... energy ones that is... are you talking about visualizing the space between yourself and your attacker as a giant balloon?

    or are you talking about the way human movement is expressed as being inside a sphere? like understanding weapon reach...

    is it like your opponent is inside a giant hamster ball?

    or are you imaging your opponent as a billiard ball and see the fight as clashing and rebounding?

    is this a method of using splatter vision to read the edge of your attacker?

    This approach seems to make a lot of sense especially for a night fighter who couldn't see the hips, hands, chest, etc... but would be able to see an opponents silhouette...

    Hatsie, I live in North Carolina USA...

    OH and its not the length of your dagger... its the diameter of the bullet that backs it up... :D

    take care, steve
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2005
  17. Gringo

    Gringo New Member

    where's the space?


    Sorry to ask such a dumb question but the space occupied by the attacker's body is also considered space or is it the non-occupied area? I am only learning systema and even in that have had only few weeks of training therefore not really any MA experience.

    Gringo :)
  18. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned


    There is a thread on here for the kukan which goes into the space thing, also Ben Cole did a bit on Kutaki no mura about the kukan and thats where the desription of balls comes from, kukan is roughly defined as slack, the amount of slack you give yourself between you and the uke, timing, balance and distance.

    Dont be lazy, have a look around!!!:D
  19. xen

    xen insanity by design's not the size of the nail... it's the weight of the hammer knocking it in :D

    (oh god, you lot have got me at it now :eek: )

    on topic:


    try not to get too lost in the kukan thing, it really is 'up-there' stuff for the higher dan grades.

    I'll be honest, if you scan the kukan thread and read my post about it, i was put under pressure by greg to provide my thoughts after he said my comments on 'intuition' were thread-drift.

    I wrote what i 'intuitionally' felt about the subject. But they are just words and intellectual understanding (or misunderstanding :eek: ). That is not taijutsu...just because i can write a flowery, semi-mystic/metaphysical description of a concept does not mean i have any mastery of the subject in the sense of direct application in the physical world.

    And an intellectual or mental understanding of a concept does not mean it is going to help you get better at 'physically' applying and working with the concept.

    kukan, like everything else in this confounded art, seems to be best found when you forget about it and look for something else. As soon as you do, it then jumps out and say's, "I was here all the time!"

    i've been thinking about this 'search' thing.

    this forum is pretty fast-moving lately, threads start, run for a couple of weeks maybe and then we're on to something else.

    Are you saying greg, that you think it is best to keep really tight lines and have say, one thread for kukan, one thread for jokes, one thread for weapons etc etc?

    I think that, esp, with an art like ninjutsu, the concepts all blend into each other and some reference to other concepts, alongside the main thread topic serves to put that main topic into the wider context of the art (as long as the main topic isn't overshadowed).

    Taking this thread for example, Watching Space. It seems to me that watching space is something that helps people develop kukan, because they are then begining to relate to the interactions between things as opposed to things themselves...thus kukan becomes a natural subject that evolved as the discussion progressed...not saying your wrong, just wondering what you think :)

    on topic (ish);

    anyone else thinking about the intro to Essence of Ninjutsu...(notes on translation) while we talk about space and kukan ? ;)
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2005
  20. Gringo

    Gringo New Member

    Yes found it! :)

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