Wall application #1

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by Rebel Wado, Jun 21, 2013.

  1. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I developed some applications with having a defender's back to a wall and facing some common attacks. I call these Wall applications and across the set of these applications, I try to enforce principles that are useful in other situations too.

    I don't like to share them on the Internet because I consider them my intellectual property. I don't mind teaching them to people that come train with me. It is not that I don't think any one else hasn't come up with something like them or better, it is more that when I teach them in person, I learn too from the experience. And also, when I teach them, I can see how people start to change them and many of the times those changes are for the worst... even though they might not realize they are changing them. (By worst I mean they start to ignore the principles.)

    I am posting a text description of the first one only because it is relevant to an attack in video posted in another thread. I don't mind feedback, just want credit where credit is due.

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    Wall application #1
    Opponent pins defender to wall using left forearm. Stab defender with knife held in right hand (“sewing machine” attack with repeated thrusts to heart and gut).

    For frame of reference, this is the attack demonstrated in this video.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E61jnJe_1SI"]The Reality Of Knife Attack - Deane Lawler @ the A.I.M Academy 2011 - YouTube[/ame]

    Wall application #1
    Equipment: Padded wall or wall that will not easily allow a fist or foot to go through. Eye protection. Training knife.
    Training:

    1. Left forearm is used as shield against stabbing attacks.
    2. Right hand checks/engages opponent’s left elbow. Side step to the right into horse stance.
    3. Bring feet together briefly (left foot to right).
    4. Left hand/forearm engages opponent’s left elbow. Right foot steps.
    5. Right hook punch to kidney. Left covers shoulder.
    6. Right knee to pressure point on back of leg just above the knee.
    7. Left slap to eyes, followed by right slap/chop to back of head (brain stem). Sweep and disengage.

    Details:
    1. Left forearm is used as shield against stabbing attacks.
    Applied principle: Protecting the low line... Placing a strong shield between your vitals and the threat... do not get hit.
    Application variants that often fail: Many start off with a downward block and try to strike the incoming forearm... this can work but requires good timing or luck. Some try to use their hand to block the knife, this can also work but leaves the arteries and soft tissue of the arm open to be cut.

    Suggested application: Better is to form a strong shield using the forearm against the multiple stabs... bone to blade.

    2. Right hand checks/engages opponent’s left elbow. Side step to the right into horse stance.
    Applied principle: Engage the elbows... align the body for attack... Protect the high line.

    Application variants that often fail: Some try to move to the right and forward 45 degrees... this can work if you are fast enough, but if you try this while being pressured backwards, it often fails and promotes turning. Other issues are that many defenders will side step and turn into or away from the attacker. If you turn to face the attacker, your shield often collapses and your whole centerline is open for stabs (dead man's pose). If you turn away to run, you often catch a few stabs to the back.

    Suggested application: Use right hand to check the attacker's left elbow (since it is already close to you). Side step to the right without turning (it does not have to be horse stance, just a side step works). Important to note that you have no protection from the blade on the high line, so evading to the right, away from the attack is your protection. Very important to check the elbow so that the attacker cannot easily turn into you and continue to attack. You should have a shoulder-to-shoulder alignment (your left shoulder is aligned with the attacker's left shoulder). Even if all else fails, seek to keep the shoulder to shoulder alignment as the attacker continues to attack you.

    3. Bring feet together briefly (left foot to right).
    4. Left hand/forearm engages opponent’s left elbow. Right foot steps.
    Applied principle: Get off the line of attack... stepping with the lower base without turning the upper base.

    Application variants that often fail: Some defenders over react against the attacker and move too far to the right, this allows attacker the room to turn into the defender. Some defenders turn towards the attacker as they move the feet, this uproots the defender and allows the attacker to easily push the defender's checking arm away and continue to attack.

    Suggested application: Bring the left foot closer to right so that you can weight the left foot and step forward with the right without turning. The right hand that is checking the attacker's left elbow is replaced with the defender's left forearm (between the attacker's elbow and shoulder). Do not turn as you want your body alignment to be rooted and strong to prevent the attacker from turning into you. If all fails, seek the shoulder to shoulder alignment and go from there (this is not covered in Wall application #1, but is addressed in later Wall application sets).

    5. Right hook punch to kidney. Left covers shoulder.
    Applied principle: Stun or unbalance on contact. Torso twist and using the legs to generate power.

    Application variants that often fail: Not much fails here that didn't already go wrong before, such as turning too early and collapsing or uprooting yourself.

    Suggested application: You want to use your rotational power here on the strike. I hook to kidney but often prefer more of a shovel hook or upper cut to the kidney. You want to take the attacker's mind off his hands so that he is not using the hands to attack you.

    6. Right knee to pressure point on back of leg just above the knee.
    7. Left slap to eyes, followed by right slap/chop to back of head (brain stem). Sweep and disengage.
    Applied principle: Eyes first. Finish strongly.

    Application: You can just push the attacker away and run... don't need anything more for training. Especially if multiple attackers you don't have much time. However, I like to train a bit of combinations for reaction from attacker. So if you do 6-7 as above... with the right knee you first do a double slap to the back of the attacker's shoulder to drive their head towards the wall. You want the attacker to believe their face will smash into the wall and sometimes you get them to smash their hand holding the knife into the wall when they try to stop themselves. The knee attacks a common pressure point on the leg. Follow up with a slap and rake to the eyes to temporarily blind the attacker. The last strike in the sequence is to the back of the head around the brain stem area. It can be slightly to the side and at a 30 degree downward angle, but there are a lot of good and effective targets in that area all the way down the spine too. I prefer an open hand chop or slap, but it can be a closed fist punch to the back of the neck too. This is intended to shutdown the attacker (knock out) and accuracy is important to hit the area. As the attacker's body shuts down, slam their face into the wall and run, just in case it is only temporary.

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    This ends the text description of my Wall application #1. I hope you find something useful in it.

    The most important thing, IMHO, is that you train the movements until they come intuitively and embrace the underlying principles that make things work. Test everything out and find what works for you and build on that.

    Thank you for your time.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2013
  2. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Video Pls
     
  3. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Come train with me. :p
     
  4. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    If this is against the scenario demonstrated in the video, I'm having difficulty envisioning this as a viable defense. There's way too much thought and moving parts into it. In an attack like this you're getting stabbed no matter what you do (hence where awareness and avoidance kick in) - trying to use your left forearm as a shield in the manner you're describing doesn't seem copacetic to me and it seems like too much thought for in my eyes could be handled in a simpler way - hook their left forearm with your left hand (keep your arm tight to your body for leverage and might provide some incidental protection), jerk your right hip forward as you smash their left upper arm with your right forearm and face plant him into the wall. From here wear his butt out with strikes, run, or draw your own weapon. Less moving parts, all gross motor, and its fast and effective.
     
  5. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Agreed - far too complex and doesn't sound remotely viable. Any deliberate" shielding" with a limb is pretty much doomed to failure
     
  6. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I can't see this as any less complex than any other option provided by Kuma's post.

    "1. Left forearm is used as shield against stabbing attacks.
    2. Right hand checks/engages opponent’s left elbow. Side step to the right into horse stance."

    Anyway, it is hard to visualize without first hand experience with the technique. We practice this one often so it really is easy to check the elbow high and shield low because it does not matter if punch or weapon, you do the same. The only difference between punch and weapon is the range you slip to the right and the angle.

    Well heck, I tried to give details.
     
  7. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    IME, grab is slower than strike. Through our pressure tests, a simple check of the elbow to the side and getting off the line of attack was the quickest. The shield is necessary because you might be slow to get off the line, you need something strong and solid to cover vitals.

    Thanks for the input, anyway.
     
  8. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Possibly the medium is not helping - it sounds hellishly complicated as text though
     
  9. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    True, when I teach it, I break it down to very small tasks and go from there.

    Does it help if I say that the attacker's left elbow is closer to you than his right and you have a free right hand. So use your right hand to check the attacker's left elbow to your left. Move to your right to get off the line of attack.

    Use your left forearm to protect your vitals... bone to blade.

    The rest is everything to do after you get off the line of attack to prevent the attacker from turning into you and to allow you to take the attacker's backside.
     
  10. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    One problem in my opinion is there's several steps before anything ever even happens to the **** attacking you. That's unfortunately common in a lot of self defense scenarios you see. My philosophy is to explode on the attacker so now he's the one reacting and mentally unbalanced. In the approach I would use, you're not only pancaking his nose against the wall you're up against but you also get in that shot to his arm before which can give him some pain too (the more pain you give the bad guy the better in my book).

    Relying on body shots is a tough one too as they're not always a good target. It's cold 9 months out of the year where I live and a thick jacket will take a lot of oomph out of a body punch. In my approach I would try to keep my opponent against the wall as my right hammer fist drummed on the back of his head like I was Lars Ulrich doing a solo. I want to knock that guy out ASAP, and body shots won't always ft the bill.
     
  11. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    If they're really pinning you up against a wall though, I don't see it as being quite so easy to check and side step from. Like Hannibal said, it may just be because it's written but I'd be Swiss cheese before I could do half of that. Video would help immensely.
     
  12. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    The part about doing something on contact is very important and why the technique works under pressure tests.

    When you check the elbow to the side and move off the line of attack, you are in a shoulder to shoulder alignment. From this position there are many options for attacking from there... so you can try things from there. In the case of the suggested application I wrote, you are slipping to the back of the opponent to get a better angle to shove their face into the wall.

    In testing, while you are doing this, the attacker often is completely surprised by this because you appear to disappear to them... kind of hard to explain but it is not uncommon for them to stab into the wall. If you slip to the side and turn, however, it seems that the attacker tends to track you and turn into you. Hard to explain without first hand experience.
     
  13. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    When they start to stab, they forget about their left hand pressure, it kind of alternates. It turns out more like they strike you with left and stab with the right.

    If you are truly pinned to the wall, then hopefully they aren't stabbing you too. I have variants of Wall applications for further range and closer ranged (ground). The ground/pinned to wall version of Wall application #1 is similar to swimming under the armpit of the attacker while they are in your half-guard.

    When the range changes, the angles of the slip to the side change.
     
  14. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Sorry to say RW, but with just text alone I'm having difficulty seeing it being the least bit effective. Thanks for sharing at least.
     
  15. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Darn, maybe I ought to make a video for MAP.

    Trying not to... :cry:
     
  16. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Guess I can't edit my original post to add these video links. If a mod could add these videos right above the "Details:" header in the original post, thank you.

    Well, took today's class and made videos for you.

    Here is demonstration of the basic Wall application #1:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5HXPQ6Rhmo"]Wall application 1 demo - YouTube[/ame]

    Here is a summary of the details (sorry I get tongue tied a bit, not much into being filmed):

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyEqEDQxu_E"]Wall application 1 summary - YouTube[/ame]

    Cheers.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2013
  17. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Sometime we have to look at everything from both angles. How about the

    - 1st hour that you teach what you have just described.
    - 2nd hour ypu teach how to finsh your opponent when his back is against the wall.

    I'm sure at the begining of the 3rd hour, your students will ask, "What if I use the technique that you taught me in the 1st hour to deal with the technique that you taught me in the 2nd hour?" :)
     
  18. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    True that is.

    That is one of the reasons I don't want to distribute video of them... by the time I get to Wall application #8, I've got nothing left :eek:
     
  19. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Agree! Sometine you share clips in the public domain, people may think that you try to "show off".

    This just remind me a line from a movie.

    A: If you have the solution, why didn't you explain it to my lord?
    B: Your lord didn't ask me?

    Sometime people may think

    free information = worthless information
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2013
  20. ned

    ned Valued Member

    just goes to show why books(and to a lesser extent,videos) are only of much use as
    a supplement to face to face training,especially in dealing with a complex and dangerous
    scenario such as this.



    Edit.posted this after reading.post#15,before i saw the clips posted.my comment was'nt meant as a critique of these.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2013

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