Walkden-Shiyun controversy

Discussion in 'Tae Kwon Do' started by Mitlov, May 26, 2019.

  1. Monkey_Magic

    Monkey_Magic Well-Known Member

    I do wonder where it leaves TKD: the rules have already made the sport look odd to the uninitiated.

    With ‘foot fencing’ but no punches to the head, World Taekwondo rules have created a bizarre spectacle.

    Not that ITF rules are much better. Why aren’t hooks and uppercuts permitted? Yet jumping punches are encouraged. Also, those crazy jumping punches score more points than a cross. You couldn’t make it up :(
  2. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I think if they disallowed everything except kicking and called it "foot fencing" it would make a lot more sense to the uninitiated.
    Mitch likes this.
  3. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    All combat sports are weird abstractions designed to test or display certain skills or facets. The creator/s have a certain agenda and the rules reflect that.
    You can't throw hooks and uppercuts in Judo either.
    Mitlov likes this.
  4. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    The premise of Judo is a lot simpler though. You can say to someone who's never seen it before "they have to get each other on the ground and they can't hit each other", it will mostly make sense.

    Olympic TKD can't be summed up in a sentence like that, and the scoring can be confusing if you aren't familiar with the rules.

    This is from someone who isn't familiar with the rules of either.
  5. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    The premise of wrestling seems pretty simple but I'll be damned if I can understand what's going on half the time.
    That one bit where they get in the referee's position and then the other dude has to lift them up...or something. Is that Greco? Folkstyle? Very weird.

    I get you though...I'm no fan of WT taekwondo. I think it started off trying to be different from ITF taekwondo and has got increasingly strange from there through a series of patches and updates that didn't quite fix the whole operating system.
    They've started to introduce lycra outfits now too. :)
    Mitlov likes this.
  6. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    Yes. When I started, the rule system was fairly easy - full contact kicks and punches above the waist but no hands to the head. No grabs or throws. Scoring was done by 'trembling shock' or moving an opponent and wins by KO were encouraged. I still love TKD (hold a 5th dan from Kukkiwon) but no longer actively train in it, partly due to the changes in sparring rules (and partly due to changing ideas about I want to do in the martial arts). I am not a fan of the electronic scoring and I don't like all the 'little changes' they've made. Under the old rules, it was pretty simple to follow. Nowadays I don't even watch TKD matches any more.

    Yes.... sigh.... they are. I think they look terrible.

    I like the older style v-neck pullover uniforms a lot... they look uniquely 'TKD' and are pretty practical as far as not coming untucked or pulled apart. For sparring under the older TKD rules, they worked well... better than a cross over traditional style one.
  7. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    I'm not up on current ITF rules, but certainly hooks and uppercuts are not against the rules in the early-ITF style I follow.
  8. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    Olympic TKD isn't the only sport where spectators who don't know the rules can't follow it. The same is true of BJJ and fencing.

    I'm not saying Olympic TKD is perfect as is; I just don't think that's the right litmus test.
    Last edited: May 29, 2019
  9. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I agree, but the most popular olympic sports tend to be the ones that are easy to grasp. If TKD wants to become more popular at the Olympics I think it needs simplifying. Fencing isn't a good example of how to connect with your spectators! ;)
    Thomas likes this.
  10. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    What are the point scoring systems?
  11. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    5 points for flicking the last 5mm of your toenail lightly across the headguard.
    hewho, David Harrison and Mitch like this.
  12. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    For WT TKD?
    Written here: WT Rules Sparring
    Quick video here
    Mushroom likes this.
  13. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    Cheers, pretty much what I thought then... (more points for flair)

    Maybe don't stop the action for every scoring hit and just let fly?

    x2 the points for consecutive hits?

    or does that exist in a ruleset somewhere?
  14. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    My mistake...it appears flicking your toenail across the head guard is 3 points. It's 5 points if you do a little pirouette before the toenail flick.
  15. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I thought that's what already happens?
  16. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    I've only watched Oly TKD and they seemed to constantly stop the action.
  17. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    At the root of the problem is a ruleset with no punches to the head and no sweeps/throws. Once competitors get to clinch range there's nothing to do, so bouts usually consist of quick exchanges then a restart after a few chest bumps :D
    Mushroom likes this.
  18. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Sounds like a lot of street fights too. :)
  19. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    Handbags at dawn
  20. Botta Dritta

    Botta Dritta Valued Member

    I think you find that in fencing some of the older competitors struggle to figure out referee decisions nowadays. Priority rules in foil are in practice just bizzare now, to the point they don't even seem to reflect the rulebook. It used to be that the fencer who is first extending weapon arm that had Right of Way. Now in cadet competitions is common to give priority of attack to those who move their feet forward before their opponent. I don't even try to understand Sabre referring.

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