Video Training Doesn't Work

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by DAnjo, Apr 20, 2006.

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  1. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    This topic was originally from another forum. I decided to bring it over here for you guys to weigh in on as well. Here's the first couple of posts from me and our dear friend ajka:

    Danjo Wrote:
    Distance learning doesn't work unless you've already trained in the material live. At least this is true of the techniques. Kata, you can probably learn via video. Let me tell you about my experience with this:

    Last night I started training at Prof. John Bishop's Kajukenbo Academy. It was GREAT to be back to live training and it was a wonderful class. The students are well trained and friendly and Prof. Bishop is a lot of fun to train with as your instructor. I'm pretty sore today, but in a good way!

    Now, I have had the Kajukenbo tapes for some time and had memorized many of the techniques in anticipation of training in Kajukenbo. I practiced them in the air over and over again until they were fairly well polished. Well, once I got to start trying them with the students, I found out that my sense of timing and distance was all off. Plus, there were several subtleties in the techniques that I had missed when watching the tapes. Not being a novice in the martial arts, I was fair at some of them, but I looked like a white belt at many of them. I am therefore absolutely convinced that there is no way anyone can get to black belt legitimately through a video course. There's just too much that you can't learn without live training and an instructor that can tell you what you're doing wrong. The tapes are a great supplement, but they in no way are a substitute for actual instruction. People are just fooling themselves if they think otherwise.


    Ajka's reply:

    Originally Posted by Danjo:
    1) Distance learning doesn't work unless you've already trained in the material live.

    2) Not being a novice in the martial arts, I was fair at some of them, but I looked like a white belt at many of them.

    3) I am therefore absolutely convinced that there is no way anyone can get to black belt legitimately through a video course.

    4) There's just too much that you can't learn without live training and an instructor that can tell you what you're doing wrong.

    5) The tapes are a great supplement, but they in no way are a substitute for actual instruction.

    6) People are just fooling themselves if they think otherwise.

    akja Wrote:
    1) Possibly correct. That would depend on the individual.

    2) Apparrently you are novice enough that you couldn't make it work while others do.

    3) Refer to answer #2. But I think you may have a true motive that is headed in another direction about certain people.

    4) Theres to much that YOU can't learn. Again refer to answer #2. Live training is a necesity for a lot of systems but some senior instructors don't see it that way and some even base their judgnment solely on forms.
    http://www.thebelt.com/
    Not saying it's a good program. Just saying that some who are greater than us see it differantly than you.

    5) True.

    6) Or maybe you were just fooling yourself. You're abilities in no way affect everyone elses.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2006
  2. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member


    1) You're obviously concerned about this because of your Black Belt via video tape series.

    2) Tell me who else made it work? You need to give some examples of those who trained solo via video and then were able to make it work the first time without their timing and distance being off.

    3) You're obviously concerned about this because of your Black Belt via video tape series . (even though I didn't have you in mind when I wrote this)

    4) You're obviously concerned about this because of your Black Belt via video tape series .

    5) Viola! Agreement!

    6) Never said they did Jim, but you're hardly one to judge that. At least I didn't take a hodgepodge of material that I had studied over the years and invent my own system the way you did. I mean, I could take the fact that I began training in 1978 and say that I have 28 years of experience and mix the various things I had learned and call it something new and look for a long distance "Hanshi" to validate me and give me a godan in "Bujitsu", but I'm a wee bit more honest than that. ;)

    Have fun Bubba.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2006
  3. kempojosh

    kempojosh Valued Member

    so if i wanted to create my own system, what would i have to do to make it legit?
     
  4. kempojosh

    kempojosh Valued Member

    danjo, if you've been training since 1978 don't you think you could create your own style? or find a "hanshi" type and get a black belt so yo can open up a school. if you get a black belt then you could get students and they can move up to bb. you would be promoting the arts first hand by running a school. eventually you could have a chain of schools.
     
  5. kempojosh

    kempojosh Valued Member

    i think it depends on the individual.....we have a couple of white belts in our shcool. when we were sparring the other day they were clueless. i mean they didn't know to punch, kick, or block. i wouldn't recommend video training for people like that. however, some people could pick up on it easily. to each his own.
     
  6. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member


    Josh,

    Yes certain basics and forms I can fully believe. I also can tell you that memorizing the material made it easier to train last night than it would have been if I had been looking at all of the material for the first time. The dangerous part of training only via video and then thinking that it equates with live training, is if you ever go to apply it in a real situation. Not that you'd use any given technique exactly as you learned it, but you need the actual contact to make it all work. Without that, how could someone call themselves a black belt witha straight face?
     
  7. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member


    I know you're being funny here. And yes, it IS funny. :)
     
  8. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member


    Get to a pre-black belt level in several arts and then get someone to "recognize" what a brilliant martial artist you really are and give you a high rank in your own art.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2006
  9. kempojosh

    kempojosh Valued Member

    have you ever thought about starting a school? what about getting the bb? if you were looking for someone to promote you to bb, you don't neccesarily have to find someone far away. oh, i just remembered, you'd want them to be in the same style. so have you ever thought about finding someone in your style to promote you?
     
  10. dianhsuhe

    dianhsuhe Co-Founder: Glow-Do

    .....

    Uh-oh......

    :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

    Here we go again... LOL

    Josh- I honestly cannot tell if you are joking in some of your posts- try the "emoticons" at right, it'd help.. :D

    I have to applaud Danjo on seeking out Sigung Bishop to train in PERSON. He is a well respected retired cop, martial arts historian and Kaju teacher... He shoots as straight as anyone I have ever read-

    Oh- The actual point of the post... Distance training, IMHO, is a supplement to be used as Danjo mentioned, and I would think it'd be difficult to become very proficient without live training*

    As for getting "promoted or recognized" as a BB rank by someone OUTSIDE ONES SYSTEM, I can't see how that'd work very well- (Not being sarcastic at all)

    I have a hard enough time "under-belt" judging at a tournament for students of different systems, I mostly base my scoring on focus, power, balance, control, etc. Whereas at BB (where most of this is already developed, hopefully :p ) some styles just look more different than similar- making scoring difficult* I know tournaments do NOT mimic much outside the ring but it is the closest analogy my tired brain can think of-

    My .02
    James
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2006
  11. kempojosh

    kempojosh Valued Member

    i had no idea that danjo had seeked out Sigung Bishop. i wasn't trying to start a keyboard war. it was just friendly advice for a lack of better term.
     
  12. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member


    Josh,

    I would never accept rank from someone not in my own art. Also, unless an instructor personally handed me a black belt that I had earned from him, I would not place any value in it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2006
  13. dianhsuhe

    dianhsuhe Co-Founder: Glow-Do

    .02

    It was just my .02

    Have a great night folks!
     
  14. James Kovacich

    James Kovacich RENEGADE

    Like I said, I felt you were baiting me and funny you responded differantly over there so I was right in READING YOU!

    You make some bold statements. My site does not reflect even close to all of my training for several reasons but you seem to want to test me. Come and test me. Let me also tell you that I always put on a white belt in EVERY school I've attended. I started in Kaju in 1973 and went to purple and in 75-6 I found myself in another Kaju school and I put on the white belt again. I went through some personal things and I went back to my Kaju instructor I put on the white belt again.

    Tell me. What color belt are you wearing now? I put my time in and you have no idea what I've been through but you are insinuating my system aint ****. Come and test it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2006
  15. James Kovacich

    James Kovacich RENEGADE

    1,3 and 4
    Explain yourself.

    2
    http://www.thebelt.com/Home/photos/Arizona_Black_Belt_I/Belt_Test/belt_test.htm
     
  16. James Kovacich

    James Kovacich RENEGADE

    You think I'm selling a black belt video series? Post #14 at MT explains how I came to what I do. You're so far off!
     
  17. Red J

    Red J New Member

    Like I have said before, nothing is better than live training.

    I think the best video training is when someone is able to travel to see his/her instructor on at least a monthly basis for instruction and use the vids as reference. It is hard to get the skills, and especially the nuances of an art, without the live instructor piece.
     
  18. kenpoist

    kenpoist New Member

    I don't know how it works in other Kenpo/Kempo systems, but in the Parker system there are too many principles, terms and subtleties that can't be fully expalined on a video training format.
    I use my instructor's tapes to supplement my one on one training. The tapes I use are techniques and forms that my instructor and I have spent numerous hours discussing and practicing at the dojo.

    Tapes act as a good refresher (flash cards if your will). Home training is a good thing, but you should alway's seek out the experience and wisdom of an instructor to fully grasp the concept of the system in which you are training.

    Also, performing the techniques "live" is also an important element to becoming fluid and efficient in you technique. If you are training at home, try to get another person to workout with you.
     
  19. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Jim,

    Notice that this post was AFTER your insulting response on Martial Talk. I wasn;'t baiting you, but I thought I'd bring it over here to get to the straight stuff. I had in mind originally the Villari Course and the others I had seen on the internet. But, since you got all butt-hurt over this, I figured that I must have hit a nerve. How many white and purple belts add up to a Godan Jim? In "Bujitsu"? Give me a break that's not even a martial art. If we're ever in the same locale (Tracy is 300 miles north of me), I'll be glad to get together and test your system. But only if it's with you personally, not that Giant dude in your photo's LOL!

    Seriously Jim, I wasn't even thinking of you when I wrote that originally. Until you responded, I had forgotten that you advocate video training. The reason that I didn't go into it over there, was because they're a bit more restrictive in the posts that they'll allow. Here, we can hash it out. However, If you REALLY want to let this all out, tell me and we can start the topic of your art, how it was founded, your rank, how you got it, and training methods on Bullshido. They are the least restrictive forum on the web for hashing this sort of thing out.

    Cheers!
     
  20. James Kovacich

    James Kovacich RENEGADE

    Who is ranked in Bujitsu? Not me.


    Is there something about this quote from my site (highlighted below) you don't understand? I think it your questions have been in plain site all along.

    With the exception that I do not disclose all my training for differant reasons as I already hinted. But for you I'll give you some of those reasons.
    1) I trained under my brother-in-law who dosent' like his name on the net and he is a **** so I leave him out BUT I referance his instructor, who I knew.
    http://www.hayashismartialarts.com/free_form_combat.htm
    That is my right to make that "link" that was an important time in my life and training. I never staked claim to being Mr Hayashis student. But I was a brown belt under my brother-in-law, Rob Wilson, an undefeated professional kickboxer and undefeated Free Form Combatant under Mr. Hayashi who "pioneered" mixed martial arts in El Paso, Texas in the 1970's.

    I trained under my broth-in-law in Karatedo, Judo/Jujutsu, Kobudo, Aikido and Kumiuchi which is the name the Mr. Hayashi gave his Free Form Combat fighting system. I don't on my site and 99% of the time on the net (unless provoked to do so) the systems that I have personal reasons to not mention.

    Another system I do not hardly menetion is training for 3 1/2 years in BJJ. Yes this was part time training because I was already doing my own thing but I was there training under Mike Jen who must not of ever like me but he did want my money. He would always tell his students what techniques to use when they rolled with me and he never, not once did that for me.
    http://www.jenbjj.com/

    Here is the quote from my site that is in plain view. Also if you would of investigated "my hocking tapes" you would of found that NO STUDENT can order a tape without emailing me first and me verifying that they are ready for the next phase of their training and THEN I would send them a link that would allow them to make purchase only for the next phase. But how it is worked I only send tapes according to what the student can handle so they really are getting FAR LESS than a complete phase of training material.

    http://www.scientificstreetfighting.com/kempolineage.html
    Hanshi Lou Angel of the NCMA and Carter Hargrave of the WKA
    have both signed in recognition of Kempo Ju Jitsu as a new fighting system.

    Kempo Ju Jitsu is the result of many years of martial art training and crosstraining dating back to 1973. Kempo Ju Jitsu is based primarily on the "way of the fist" and secondarily on the "grappling" arts but over the years has been influenced by many arts and instructors.

    After being a martial artist for 29 years, in 2002 James Kovacich sought recognition for his small school and Kempo Ju Jitsu fighting system which he had been teaching for nearly a decade and was known by the name of Kempo Ju Jitsu since 1999. The World Kempo Association evaluated James Kovacich's Kempo Ju Jitsu and granted a 5th dan to James in his Kempo system.
    Hanshi Lou Angel helped guide James's Kempo system full circle to a new level encompassing Karate, Ju Jitsu and Gung Fu. With Hanshi's guidance and support Kempo Ju Jitsu is continually evolving into a "complete fighting solution."

    Hanshi Angel a devoted member of the World Head of Family Sokeship Council issued a certificate recognizing James Kovacich as 5th dan of his Kempo Ju Jitsu Fighting System and continues to "offer and deliver" total support to James Kovacich, the AKJA-Academy of Kempo Ju Jitsu and Association-Beikoku Fighting Systems and all of the AKJA's members. Thank you Hanshi Angel for devotion to me and my students!


    Before you mis-understand. There are common links between Carter Hargrave and myself and our training and that is why I joined his organization in 2002 and I am still a member. To many people don't under stand non-politcal organizations and how they function. Thats why you have such negativity to such organizations.

    Carter's first instructor was Lou Angel and his Kempo "originally" evolved from the Oakland Jun Fan Institute as was mine through Felix Macias Jr.
    http://www.taoofgungfu.com/

    You don't have to except it or feel that were challenged for that matter. But you said I have a hodge podge system, so I said why don't you test it. No big thing and I wouldn't expect anyone to "be outsized" by their opponent if they came knocking. It does not mean they will not be present. Just that I have others that are more than willing to do some old school training.

    Also in the presence of a great Kenpo warrior. He told me that many in his "community" bad mouth him BUT never to his face. He also said that his 1st degree student who was present was far superior to any of their students and that he would put his student up against any of the "bad mothers" students. I undertood what he was saying because I had been through the "hodge podge" accusations many times by then.

    So I have "reason" to let my 1st degree do the same for me. What better way to prove my teaching than to let my 1st degree bang other black belts that feel the need to knock on our door. If anyone is foolish enough to try my system. My system will be proven and posted here in the future for the world to see.
    http://www.kempofighters.com/

    Thats not what that site is for but I will make room for it. That site is for a blackbelt fighter program I have allowing my students to earn their rank not based on memorizing "300 techniques" but by the "dissolving of the technique" and moving in a totally differant direction that the "watery" direction martial arts has taken.

    But Danjo, I'm not pressuring you but I would let you try none other than me. After all it was me that told you to test me.
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2006
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