Video: Fajin Demo by the Associate Instructors of AYZYIM

Presumably this style offers some aspect not offered or practiced by any other art then?

 

Unimpressed.As I described in the Push Hands thread in the T'ai Chi forum we routinely trained the 3 Pushes Exercises in push hands with a solid wall,and would issue far more force than I'm seeing in this "test".

Heck,we used to do a similar exercise as I'm seeing here where the partner would just be a dummy as you stepped in,uprooted and flung them back.(No wall here).Again,we issued far more in that simple training exercise than I'm seeing here,and the dummy was allowed to stand in a normal stance.They took the push,which was the point of the exercise for the pusher,but they were allowed to sink/root/whatever as much as they wished.They certainly didn't have such a vulnerable foot positioning as these folks.

I also note that at times here the pushee is receiving a slight pull prior to the push.Anybody w/much experience in any system utilizing balance attacks-(Judo,Collegiate Wrestling,etc)- knows this will bring about a body reaction from most people resulting in their body recoiling in the opposite direction,however slight.This can be used to great advantage as their body is already moving away from you as you apply force to them.

Having the sensitivity to catch someone's line of balance and the mechanics to fling them isn't that big a deal as long as you have spent some serious time w/proper methods in such training,as I've said many times.I routinely in ph used to blow people back 10 feet and more before their feet touched the ground and having seen,felt,and trained w/some pretty good people I've never felt I was any more than an upper echolon low level practitioner as regards this sort of thing.

Bounce not push=semantics unless the terms are clearly defined.

"The details are beyond description..."

Really?I can describe/explain/teach compression,opening/closing joints, elongation/contraction of soft tissues and various things related to this sort of thing-what is so beyond description?

I note the website specifically singles out Yang TC practitioners as being deficient in the abilities being offered here.Since the OP states-

"If the range of scale for Pre-Heaven Power Method is from 1 to 10, the level of the associate instructors is between 5 to 6. That is, they learn a lot of it but still far from perfect."

If this is an actual sample of what these folks can issue at mid-level I'll stick w/Yang derivative training.

 

lol. let 'em have it Doc!

I can't believe they said that about Yang style, the basterds!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

First of all, the Pre-Heaven Power Method is not a "style". Its objective is to cultivate the optimal body mechanics which should be applicable in any martial arts style. It is a breakthrough discovery by Grandmaster Pan Yue in 1994. On July 1997, a press conference was held in a university in Taipei to announce this discovery. The conference was endorsed by many old generation martial arts leaders in Taiwan. It has been evolving since then and reached the mature state a few years ago. Specifically, the evolution begins with Xinyiquan like movements and changes naturally to more Tai Chi like soft movement three or four years ago. There are many insights in this method not available in the traditional Chinese internal arts. I strongly believe that this method will one day become the standard of martial arts body mechanics.

 

Sure. If you feel good about what you currently have, you don't have to learn this method because you will have to start as a beginner again.

In martial arts, feeling is believing. The Pre-Heaven Power Method is a revolutinary one and we don't expect to convince everyone to adopt this body mechanics. However, if you try this method, you will be very surprised how it can improve your skill. It took the owner of the lionbooks.com.tw three years to convince me to visit Grandmaster Pan. Your reaction to this is totally understandable.

 

Yeah,I'm totally benighted.

I'm very open minded and always open to new things.Including new instructors from any system.Most,but not all of my TC background is descended from Yang lines,but I'm not hung up on that as "The Way".If your chief was in my town I'd probably study with him.

That said,as regards what you're selling-

The only "revolutionary" thing I've heard is operating off the balls of the feet.Something Tim Tackett was utilizing in his Hsing I in the '70s and William Chen has been doing....forever.It's an option.Otherwise it's just as constipated as those who believe you must have your feet flat,or think you can't issue off a front weighted foot.

I'm curious as to what other inside mechanics are utilized aside from things such as I mentioned above-but I guess it's beyond description,right?I think most here could comprehend what these things are if explained to them.Whether they'd want to bother putting all the time in to develop such mechanics is another matter,but it doesn't take a genius to understand this stuff,whether in theory or execution.

I'm not saying the program you're selling's not a good training method.I am still saying if that was examples of your mid-level guys your mid-level isn't very impressive.I've seen non-martial oriented students of Cheng,Man-ch'ing do better.

 

We will explain and demonstrate many details of the method in the workshop. As I said, if you have already firmly grasped the essence of the internal martial arts, you don't need to learn this. However, if you still have doubt on whether you fully understand the internal arts, then things you learn in this workshop might answer your questions.

 

"Money, Money Money".....
Give us da money and we will show you the secrets....

Unfortunately, no video can convey what is happening...how much compliance in involved...the only way to find out is with personal experience.

 

Hi Friends,

I really wonder why everybody seems to want to give Nujaubung such a hard time. Before you think I'm a crony, let me say that I never heard of these guys nor their system and that I am a Xingyi Quan practitioner across the big pond with a somewhat intimate knowledge of the art albeit no expert. With that I want to say only that I know IMA when I see it because I have some experience in it.

What Nujaubung and his friends are demonstrating is nothing more and nothing less than what they claim it to be: a testing of the expression of force arising from the union of form and intent. Agreed, they could have been a bit more selective in their clips and made an extra effort to demonstrate the use of internal force rather than combining with external build-up in motion. On the other hand, once the internal concept is properly understood it is trained jointly with the motion to practice timing.

What they demonstrate is simply a result of cultivating the San Bao (three treasures) persistently - once learned and when applied well it uproots the opponent and tosses him or her backwards (also only with a slight nudge when performed really skillfully from static). I noticed on one of their other videos from the site posted by Nujaubung that there are a few demonstrations based on more closed stances (as is e.g. the case the in Xingyi Quan Beng Quan or the Xingyi Quan Tiger form). Such examples may be used for demonstrations to do away with the purely external / mechanical argument that the attacker shouldn't have a wider stance than the opponent.

To round off, I want to say that some martial artists seek this stuff for 20 years till they finally discover the wonders of IMA (unfortunately, some never do). If you have never had privilege to feeling this on your own body and been shown in turn how to apply it on your own you should do yourself the favour of seeking it with an open mind. As I don't know Nujaubung and their school I can't tell you if that's the best place to seek it, but let me tell you this: it is fairly rare and traditionally it was only taught to closed door students.

I hope that helps put things a bit into perspective.

 

The reason we give this sort of stuff a hard time is that time and time again we see it...and it's always done on a willing partner rather than a stranger and can pretty much always be explained by good body mechanics rather than some nebulous "internal power".
If such power can be cultivated why don't people that throw javelins for a living cultivate it?
Why aren't chinese athletes winning every throwing sport there is?
If they can throw 200lbs of human 10 feet back into a matress why can't they throw a 16lb shot 500 yards or something?

Personally I think it's because the inert shotput doesn't sell the technique for them and that video doesn't disprove that.

 

First of all, the internal power is purely generated by body mechanics, not by directing Qi, as you can see this point emphasized in our americamyzy.com site. It is "internal" because it is done by coordinating many internal body parts in a movement. The flow of Qi is a consequence, not cause.

If a non-Chinese learns the Pre-Heaven Power Method, he will definite be more powerful than a Chinese with the same skill level but smaller size. He can then throw 200lbs of human 15 feet back into a mattress.

The body mechanics in throwing a javelin is not the same as that in throwing a person and the Chinese don't have any more insightful knowledge than non-Chinese in this sport.

 

Could it be one reason it's not being received well by someone who knows about this stuff is that it's being claimed as a revolutionary and superior new training method? As you know about this type of training do you think on observation of these clips it's so much better than what you do? Because Nujaubung seems to. "There are many insights in this method not available in the traditional Chinese internal arts." Tho' now there seems to be some backtracking. "As I said, if you have already firmly grasped the essence of the internal martial arts, you don't need to learn this." However,if you can find where this was said I'll give you a Tootsie Roll.

It's also not that the attacker shouldn't have a wider stance than the dummy in those clips-it's that the dummy is in such a vulnerable position regardless of the attacker's.

I'm not disputing the mechanics-(tho' for the purpose of a "test" it's rather jive to see someone pull the dummy before issuing)-I'm disputing that it's a big whoop in relation to others who can do the same thing.Including those who do it better. Press conference at a university and endorsment by unnamed "martial art leaders" not withstanding.

N hasn't been very good at addressing concerns/questions put to him by people in this thread.While there may be some things one wouldn't want to give precise instructions on-(after all,most do get paid for that)-saying something is beyond description is 1)jive, and 2)not going to get you far w/people asking reasonable questions.

And if those are what they consider mid-level then their estimation seems too high.Speaking as a lower level practitioner.

 

Thank you very much for your fair comment.

You are absolutely right on the point that "traditionally it was only taught to closed door students". Whether or not to reveal this secret openly to the world is a tough decision for us. It took us a few years to think it over before we decide to do it. The major reason is that we try to have the contribution of Grandmaster Pan be recognized by the world's martial arts community while he is still alive.

 

Yeah,PA-they're not claiming ch'i,just mechanics performed on a living person-doesn't work so well on a box,or a dead guy.

It's just certain mechanics combined with the sensitivity to catch someone's weakest/weaker line of balance.That's why an old guy,in the context of push hands can throw out a younger,stronger guy.Nothing mystical or anything.It doesn't mean the old guy can kick the young guy's tail.

 

Is the Grandmaster Pan that you're referring to one and same as... Pan Qingfu (潘清福)??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Qingfu

 

Essentially the same as the concept and technique of kuzushi in Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, Aikido and Judo?

 

Take tai sabaki + the specific mechanics we use- that's all folks!

 

I may have confused you with another guy in a different forum. However, before you comment on what I said here, I expected you to have visited our americanyzy.com site. In the page "Who AYZYIM Is For", the first group is "(1) Those who have practiced internal style martial arts for a long time without getting a firm grasp of what internal power really is"." So, if you think you understand internal power thoroughly, you may not have to come because we don't know whether there exists an unknown method which may achieve the same effect with a different approach. When I said "There are many insights in this method not available in the traditional Chinese internal arts", it is based on our knowledge of the state of the art.

As to "endorsment by unnamed "martial art leaders"", you can find the names in page 57 of the December 2004 issue of the Kung Fu Tai Chi Magazine.

I think we have given people enough information to make a decision on whether it is worthwhile to attend the workshop. We will try to introduce this method to the world's martial arts community for three years at least. After three years, we will decide whether we want to continue promoting this method. Everyone of us working on this is not paid and we consider this as more of a community service than a money making activity.

 

No. The name I referred to is Pan Yue (潘岳).

 

ok... whew... Thanks for the clarification.