Very informative discussion about what JKD is and isn't

Discussion in 'Jeet Kune Do' started by Cain, Jan 22, 2003.

  1. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Last edited: May 12, 2013
  2. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Finite by being infinite and basically saying exactly the same thing that has been said before

    "Absorb what is useful, reject what is useless add what is your own" - nuff said
     
  3. Street Stylist

    Street Stylist Banned Banned

    Okay, my temporary ban has been lifted. I won't correct anyone any more, even if I think their interpretation of JKD isn't 100% what Bruce Lee had in mind. I'm sorry for throwing in my two cents on that topic. Instead, I'm just going to say one last thing about JKD and then I'm going to be done with it.

    Anyone who says something different from what Bruce Lee said, from what Dan Inosanto said, from what Taky Kimura said, from what Jerry Poteet, Daniel Lee or Ted Wong said in regards to JKD, has clearly missed the point. Here is what JKD should be, IMHO:

    - Learn the Nucleus
    - Stick to the Nucleus
    - Dissolve the Nucleus

    This, IMHO, is extremely important for learning JKD and is the key to understanding it. So what is the "Nucleus" of JKD? Well, according to Bruce Lee, Dan Inosanto, Ted Wong and many other JKD experts, the "Nucleus" of JKD is the Jun Fan Fighting Methods or Bruce Lee's Fighting Methods, the foundation of what JKD is. Some people call it OJKD, some call it Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do, some just call it Jeet Kune Do.

    Whatever you call it, that is the "Nucleus" of JKD, and according to Dan Inosanto, who holds the highest authority in JKD, you need that base or foundation in order to learn JKD, in order to understand where it came from, and in order to understand where it is going. Jun Fan is the core of Jeet Kune Do, also he is the founder of it, so it is an absolute necessity for JKD practitioners to learn Jun Fan's Nucleus.

    According to Bruce Lee himself, and many of his original students, that Nucleus is madeup of elements from primarily Wing Chun, Western Boxing, and Epee Fencing, with some other elements from Panantukan, Muay Thai, Savate, Judo and Jujutsu (about 8 styles altogether). Keep in mind that this is not MMA, being that Bruce Lee didn't practice the "whole" styles when teaching JKD, he only practiced "some" of the elements from each style and used them to form the basis of Jeet Kune Do.

    Bruce Lee and Dan Inosanto studied probably 26 styles altogether during Bruce's lifetime. Someone else already mentioned that. But he didn't implement those 26 styles into JKD, or use them in his teachings. Rather, he used JKD's "nucleus" to try and figure out those styles, in order to improve his own JKD and find weaknesses in those 26 styles. Although they researched other arts, they still followed the 2nd base principle of JKD which is "Sticking to the Nucleus".

    The third principle is where JKD gets confusing for some people. Often times, they try to build the roof on a house before laying the foundation. As a result, many people have missed the whole idea of what Bruce Lee was trying to teach. The third step in JKD is what gives us the original freedom, what makes JKD formless or shapeless, and what is meant by Bruce Lee when he says "I have not created another martial art." By dissolving the Nucleus, we are encouraged to forget the pattern of JKD and move on. This is the highest stage in JKD training, and also why it is reserved for last.

    Ted Wong, Daniel Lee, Jerry Poteet and several other students of Bruce Lee have chosen to stick to the nucleus, so that Bruce Lee's JKD would not be forgotten - Perhaps looking ahead to the future when people would try to skip the 1st two very important steps in learning Jeet Kune Do.

    Dan Inosanto is a pioneer of the 3rd step in JKD, "dissolving the nucleus" and "returning to the original freedom." Dan Inosanto began teaching OJKD classes at the Kali Academy, but then he also started teaching seperate classes for other "whole" styles like Kali, Krav Maga, Muay Thai, Jujutsu, etc. making his own personal studio more like a MMA school. Dan Inosanto still believes, and has stated that he thinks you need OJKD in order to understand Jeet Kune Do, it's just that Dan Inosanto himself (and Bruce Lee) have gone above and beyond that in taking the next step.

    When we see things like "absorb what is useful, discard what is useless, add what is specifically your own," this process is not meant for OJKD - Jun Fan's Fighting Methods - but rather, is JKD's approach to other styles. The reason Dan Inosanto teaches other styles in his MMA approach to JKD is because of this process right here, the process of using OJKD to absorb, discard and add. At this point it is no longer OJKD, and therefore it is no longer a style, no longer a pattern, no longer a martial art. At that moment, JKD is just a name, a boat to get one across, and once across it is to be discarded. That is the highest stage in following Bruce Lee's philosophy.

    Anyone who does not teach this same approach to JKD, in my opinion, has missed the moon entirely. You cannot teach JKD people to learn MMA without first having a base in Bruce Lee's system. If the third step was meant to be the only step in JKD, there would have never been a 1st or 2nd step to begin with. So I think that's very important to understand, and once you do understand it, I think you will find that there is no such thing as 8-million different styles of JKD (nor is there such a thing as OJKD or JKDC). There is only one path and one teaching... Jeet Kune Do.


    Thank you.
     
  4. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    I'll admit that is very interesting. Is that something you have developed yourself?
     
  5. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    How far did YOU get with those?


    Edit: beaten by Mr W!
     
  6. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    That moment when a JKD thread turns into Biology.
     
  7. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    It has been said before, and I will say it again........

    I think that’s a really good idea, that you should train in Jun Fan Gung Fu and then expand into your own Jeet Kune Do. However....at this time period, a person could get to his form of Jeet Kune Do by studying different arts and just evolving into some of the principles and concepts that were laid down by Bruce Lee.
     
  8. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Street Stylist:

    Did you know that your 3 "level" model is not unique to JKD?

    How do you see your own training with regards to those concepts you listed?
     
  9. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    Street Stylist: What happens if the nucleus divides?
     
  10. Simplicity

    Simplicity Valued Member

    :bang: Enough said!!!
     
  11. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    I'd suggest you stop banging your head against the wall.

    It's affecting your ability to post sensibly. :D
     
  12. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    What do you mean?
     
  13. ned

    ned Valued Member

    [QUOTE=Street Stylist
    My philosophy is, if you can't remember it, you don't know it. (quote)


    can't argue with that!
     
  14. Street Stylist

    Street Stylist Banned Banned

    That's 2 or 3 years in a classroom, plus another 3 or so years in the backyard, which makes 5-6 years of JKD training altogether (that's under several certified JKD instructors) before practicing JKD on my own or with a partner for several years (that's without any instructors or certification). The total amount of time I spent in learning JKD probably adds up to about 7-8 years altogether.

    Still, I agree with you. Even after 7-8 years of JKD, I have not even scratched the surface.
     
  15. Street Stylist

    Street Stylist Banned Banned

    Actually it was developed for JKD by Bruce Lee, so no, I didn't develop it myself. I followed that development, however, for quite some time. Someone else mentioned that this 3 step development can be found in other styles/systems as well.
     
  16. Street Stylist

    Street Stylist Banned Banned

    Well, me personally, I never finished 'learning' the entire nucleus of JKD, I only had about 5 years of formal training under several JKD instructors, so at the time I was just a beginner. I 'stuck' to what I did learn for quite some time, practicing and training with other JKD students or practitioners in my backyard (or in someone else's backyard). In more recent years, however, I have started to 'dissolve' my own JKD nucleus by researching my own experience, most particularly in Krav Maga, Muay Thai, Judo and Jujutsu (most of which I learned from watching Youtube videos, apart from Jujutsu which I am a beginner student in under a blackbelt practitioner).

    What I have been using JKD for is research and development. Absorbing what is useful from other martial arts, discarding what I feel is useless (anything which does not fit in with my natural/personal routine), and adding what is specifically my own (adjusting things to my own height, weight, reach, flexibility, etc.)

    For my own personal training, I research 6 ways to attack and 5 ranges to attack from. OJKD only has 5 ways of attack (ironically, this doesn't include 'intercepting' - although ABD is similar). OJKD also only has 4 ranges to attack from (they don't mention 'weapons'). So I've done a little bit of my own research in trying to find what works best for me in all 5 ranges:

    - Weapons
    - Kicking
    - Punching
    - Trapping
    - Grappling
     
  17. Street Stylist

    Street Stylist Banned Banned

    I have a feeling many people think of Jun Fan Gung Fu and Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do as being something of the same style/system, but there are actually many differences between them, not only in their philosophy, but in physical training as well. Anywho, I'll let someone else address that subject.

    "At this time", I don't think a person can truly understand -true- JKD without first having a basis or foundation in Bruce Lee's system. I really think you need that. Bruce Lee felt you needed that. Dan Inosanto felt you needed that. So I don't think that's ever going to change. I think if people claim to be teaching JKD, they should actually practice JKD, the way it was originally meant to be practiced.

    HOWEVER,

    "At this time", and even back then in the 1970's, I agree with you in that a person can get to his -own- form of JKD (albeit a philosophy/concept/approach to MMA rather than actual JKD) by studying different arts in much the same manner as you described, even if they have no foundation in Bruce Lee's Nucleus... For example, you might have a foundation in Wing Chun, or in Karate, or in Taekwondo, or in Judo, or in Pankration rather than OJKD, and then you can go from there.

    Examples of this would be Jesse Glover, one of Bruce's students who never learned OJKD, but instead used Jun Fan Gung Fu as a foundation and implemented Judo to form his -own- personal kind of JKD (which he calls Wu Wei Gung Fu, he doesn't call it JKD). Another example would be Chuck Norris who invented his own martial art using TKD as a foundation and implemented Bruce Lee's teachings to form his -own- personal kind of JKD (which he calls Chuck Kwan Do, he doesn't call it JKD). Another example would be myself, since I had a foundation in WC/OJKD and later implemented MMA/HMA elements from different styles to form my own kind of JKD (and once again, I no longer call it Jeet Kune Do, my style is actually nameless, I just refer to it as Street Defense).

    So I agree with what you are saying, but I also believe that once you get to that very personal level you are talking about, then you should no longer call it JKD, you should let go of the name. JKD is just a boat to help get you across.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2013
  18. Street Stylist

    Street Stylist Banned Banned

    As far as I am concerned, that is just another martial arts myth or story which people madeup. Because the founder of JKD was so famous, a lot of people have tried to profit from it over the years. There's a lot of mumbo jumbo about the nucleus being divided, but no real proof to suggest it. As far as I know, all of Bruce Lee's followers (Dan Inosanto, Taky Kimura, Ted Wong, Jerry Poteet, Daniel Lee, Richard Bustillo, Jesse Glover, Steve Golden, etc. etc. etc.) all believe, practice and teach the same thing. By that I mean they are all in agreement (not that they all literally practice the same arts). None of them are divided in what they think JFGF, OJKD or MMA is. Those who practice JFGF are all in accordance with what it is. Those who practice OJKD are all in accordance with what it is. Those who practice MMA are all in accordance with what it is. So in short, the nucleus hasn't been divided and it won't be. Anyone who says it has been, or that it will be, has clearly missed the mark.

    Anyone who teaches something different as 'Jeet Kune Do' is not doing it, they're just trying to make money.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2013
  19. gapjumper

    gapjumper Intentionally left blank

    Oh! I'd read that "nucleus divides" comment as being a biology joke!

    Haha oops
     
  20. Street Stylist

    Street Stylist Banned Banned

    I have -tried- to follow them the best I can. I mean, the 3 level model is really a paradox. At first you're told to learn something, but then you're told to forget it, so I mean, it hasn't been easy to follow. It took me many years to try and figure it out. But my training has improved as my knowledge has expanded and now I feel like I'm on the right path.

    Like I said, my own foundation was Wing Chun to start with. After a few years of Wing Chun, I slowly progressed to Jun Fan Gung Fu and later began practicing Jeet Kune Do - But then after a few years of having JKD as a foundation or nucleus, I started progressing and learning other martial arts or MMA elements which fit into my own natural/personal routine or structure. In recent years I have become more fond of styles like Muay Thai, Krav Maga, Jujutsu, Judo, Panantukan, Boxing, Savate, etc. because I found that these styles have helped to fill gaps in my training.

    By learning other styles, it allows you to become more fluid and adaptible at different ranges and settings. I no longer practice JKD (by that I mean I no longer practice OJKD), but I feel like I have followed Bruce Lee's teachings very closely and that I am on the right track to becoming a complete martial artist. Of course, this in itself is a lifelong process of becoming, but some of the things I've done with these styles is find out where they fit into my training.

    For example:
    1. Weapons - Kenjutsu, Ninjutsu, Krav Maga
    2. Kicking - Muay Thai, Savate
    3. Punching - Boxing, Fencing
    4. Trapping - Wing Chun, Panantukan
    5. Grappling - Judo, Jujutsu, Aikijutsu
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2013

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