I read a book once about Ayurveda which is some ancient philosophy that revolves around body types- air, fire and earth and talks about what each type should eat and how much of it. I'm the fire type and it says fire people can survive well on vegetarian diets. So maybe that is why some people find it easier than others to make the change. But i know a lot of people probably don't believe this type of stuff anyway. And it also depends on your will power and self control. Thanks to those people who posted info and links for me.
I love these threads; they usually become (as this one had during some points) vegetarians vs meat eaters. I think the biggest problem with vegetarian diets is the inclusion of massive amounts of unfermented soy products for those that use them. Some vegetarians don't eat unfermented soy but a lot do. Most of my diet consists of beans, rice, eggs, milk, cottage cheese, pumpkin seeds, almonds, sesame seeds, granola, oatmeal, and grass fed free range buffalo and chicken and a ton of my diet revolves around my juicer. I think the Monsanto corporation is evil with their GMOs and their sue the local farmer happy mind set. Sukarno, President of the Indonesian Republic from 1945-1967, admonished his fellow citizens on numerous occasions, saying "Don't be a tempeh nation." And as far as soy (specifically unfermented soy)... This is taken in part from a book called The Whole Soy Story. Soy while being listed by the FDA as heart healthy is also listed in the "Poisonous Plant Database." A bang of references-some problems associated with soy: goiter, growth problems, mineral malabsorption, endocrine disruption, and carcinogensis. If you care to search around, the link is provided below- http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~djw/pltx.cgi?QUERY=soy
Just for your edification, other common plant foods are found in the poisonous plant data base. Just because one part of the plant is poisonous, does not mean the entire plant is poisonous. The potato http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~djw/pltx.cgi?QUERY=Potato rhubarb http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~djw/pltx.cgi?QUERY=rhubarb tomato http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~djw/pltx.cgi?QUERY=tomato apple http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~djw/pltx.cgi?QUERY=apple I could go on, but I think you catch my meaning by now, yes?
IMO the negatives waaaay outweigh the positives as far as soy is concerned. Its just not worth eating. Soy intake should be minimal in anyones diet, like, once a week or less. There's a heap of articles on soy at T-Nation, which happen to be one of the reasons I retired from vegetarianism. For protein I think vegetarians should concentrate on nuts, seeds, and beans. Of course a Lacto or an Ovo-Lacto Veg will have a much easier time getting their protein. Also, when some foods with incomplete amino acid profiles are combined with each other, they make a complete protein. For example rice and beans.
Yeah, because TNation is the be all and end all of health and nutrition advice. Too bad not one vegetarian I know who consumes a lot of soy has ever had the problems they constantly bitch, ****, and moan about.
I dont think its just t-nation. I know there's a book about this. Anyways, soy was never meant to be consumed in mass quantities. There is a reason why the Chinese, Korean, and Japanese have developed the fermentation of soy.
As I said, read the research, eat soy products regularly, and not really concerned. Seen the pros of soy and the cons of soy. Someone just got ****y because *gasp* I had the gall to disagree with "Testosterone Nation" and say that, gee, no one I know who eats soy regularly suffers anything he said. Don't speak for him. His witty reply with the TOS violation speaks volumes.
I've been veggie for 16yrs, including a 5yr stint on a vegan diet. Personally, I've never had any problems. On on a moral note, I don't like modern farming methods and I think veggie / vegan diet makes a more efficient use of land and natural resouces.
I would argue that to a large extent, jimmy, considering there is no longer a single source of running or still water in the US that has not been poluted by farming. And that farming is the number one reason for desertification in many areas. Factory farming, in all its forms, is an ill thing indeed. But then, I am not into animal rights as I consider myself an animal welfarist.
This is why I'm perplexed that a veggie/vegan diet encourage better land use. Conventional farming methods destroy land quality. Vegetables thrive on nutrient rich land and with their quick maturity they also deplete whatever nutrients there are in the soil quicker than the annual crops. Following a diet balanced with meat and vegetables actually helps more because humans won't compete with the livestock for the more edibles plant crops. And this is in leiu of the fact that plants could not possibly feel any pain from being uprooted? Tree seedlings transplanted from the nursery to the planting site experience stress that is expected to delay growth or be the probable cause for premature death. Hence why I think this meat vs. veg argument is really a question of what can you stomach.
Ooh, so many fun facts. I love fun facts. Let me try. Fact: when plants are harvested, animals die. Field mice, voles, prairie dogs, amphibians, etc. I refuse to give my money to any farmers who use large destructive animal-killing machines to plow through their fields collecting vegetables and grains, leaving a wake of innocent dead animals in their path. Fact: This destruction is not limited to food. Cotton fields see similiar deaths. I refuse to give my money to any companies who harvest mass amounts of cotton, slaughtering helpless animals in the process. I'm going commando right now in fact. Fact: All the major means of procuring power we have destroy animal habitat and kill innocent animals. Dams kill fish, nuclear plants destroy habitat and poison innocent creatures, etc. I refuse to pay my power bills and support such corrupt practices. I will live on sunlight alone if it means saving every little innocent creature possible. Fact: Automobiles kill millions of animals every single year, leaving them to rot on the side of the highway in the sun. Their sad little corpses can be found everywhere, there is no end to the destruction. I refuse to purchase a car and support the automobile industry and their murdering machines. I walk everywhere, and all the while I am looking down at my feet to make sure I don't accidentally step on a living creature. Fact: All forms of industrialization and social expansion destroy animal habitat and lead to the suffering and death of innocent animals, billions of them. I refuse to pay taxes to a country that paves roads over the homes of God's creatures, and erects buildings on top of dead forests. The same country that wages wars which surely have many times more animal casualties than civilian casualties. A country that trades oil and occasionally spills it into the ocean poisoning and killing millions of innocent animals. This is why, as a form of MORALLY AND LOGICALLY CONSISTENT economic and social protest, I live alone naked in a forest eating berries and roots. If any of you do not do the same, you are hypocrites and of course I have made the moral choice to live a life conducive to the safety of all animals on the planet, which makes me a more moral human being than you. You live on a planet where you can certainly live a lifestyle that does not, in any way, lead to the destruction of innocent creatures and their habitat. Of course you have to make a few sacrifices, but hey, if you can give up meat, surely you can give up cars, electricity, clothing, and society in general in order to take the moral high road... right?
You can't argue against vegetarianism by stating the effect farming has on the environment. The simple truth is that the majority of this damaging farming produces food to support the livestock industry. Therefore, stating, "Meat-eaters are better than vegetarians because farming is bad!" is simply silly, since most of this "Bad Farming" is done to feed the animals that will soon be ripped into neat bloody chunks and served at your dinner table. We can't even argue this point because we don't know how the farming industry would work if there was no meat-eating industry...therefore, there is no standard of comparison. Bottom line: Eat organic. There has been no scientific studies that prove that vegetable life feels pain, anxiety, or suffering. No pain receptors have been found, no social lifestyles have been categorized, and no intelligence has been determined. If a new study came out that proved plants were actually as intelligent as cows/pigs/chickens, with the same individual social habits and uniqueness of character...then I would seriously be screwed. I'd have to become a confirmed Humanitarian, and eat all the free-range rude people on this planet. Of course, the amount of free-range rude people would ensure that several generations of my family line would feed quite well. Socrastein: I see what you're saying...but you're falling prey to a fallacy of logic. You're essentially saying, "I can't do EVERYTHING, so I'll do NOTHING." Does that seem like a very proactive, conscientious, or productive way to live? "I'll never get a million dollar job...so I'll collect unemployment." "I'll never get into medical school...so I'll drop out of high school." "My vote doesn't matter...so I won't even bother to vote." "I'll never look like a body builder...so I won't even bother to exercise." Sounds rather defeatist, doesn't it? Why not do SOMETHING, rather than NOTHING? Sure, things will die even by something as simple as breathing. As we speak, trillions of bacteria are perishing in gruesome ways through the cruel actions of your immune system. There is a chance that I MIGHT step on a bug while walking to my car. Because I missed my last payment to "Cute Starving Children of Africa", some adoreable, malnourished child will die cursing my name. Because I haven't donated to every single "Cute Starving Children of Africa" charity project in existence, thousands of cute starving children will die. Should this stop me from donating what I can, and possibly helping in what small way I'm humanely able to? Should I fall prey to a defeatist attitude and simply do whatever is most convenient and easy? I don't believe that for a minute, and I don't think you do either. The fact remains that there are a number of benefits to eating a vegetarian diet...and that eating a vegetarian diet is neither easy nor convenient. Arguing over semantics or trying to devalue the efforts of conscientious consumers is not only pointless...but unfair and sometimes downright cruel. Would you try and convince a foster parent that their efforts at giving homeless children a place to live are pointless because they can't house all children? Would you devalue their attempt at good work simply because "Studies have shown that foster children may suffer some psychological prolems"? Would you criticize them for "Draining our economy by receiving money from the government to help raise homeless children"? Bottom line: Be a conscientious consumer. You can't save the world, but you can spend your money on products that don't DIRECTLY destroy intelligent life (vegetarianism), or at least don't contribute to environmental destruction (organic) or needless suffering (cruelty free).
Yes. I mentioned the book a couple of posts back. It's called The Whole Soy Story by Kaayla T. Daniel, PhD, CCN Here're a couple links to the/about the book http://www.mercola.com/forms/whole_soy_story.htm http://www.thewholesoystory.com/index.php http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0838/is_124/ai_n6015579
I was a vegetarian for about 5 years. I found plenty of protein, so no worries there. I was leaner than now, about 30 pounds or so, so definately no problems there. Biggest problem at the time was reminding my parents when I went over for dinner, that I wouldn't eat meat. However, I also started having major neurological problems. I was already diagnosed with Myasthenia gravis. Later on, I started having small seizures. And developed "twitches" , nerves in my arms or face would actually pop so hard you could see the muscles "dancing" (looked like something from a SciFi movies, little bug size patches, jumping around). Then, overnight, I lost almost all strength in my upper body. I went from a 265 pound bench press, to not being able to do even 1 pushup. I saw a dozen doctors/specialists, spent a few thousand $$ on tests (several quite painful ones). In the end, I came to find out that my body does not process vitamin B12 properly. I was put on supplements (and yes, I was already taken a multivitamin supp), however that just made it even worse. Along with the normal problems there was the itching/crawling/burning sensation in my skin. Finally, I went back to eating meat. And all my symptons and problems (except the MG) went away. Now, I find that if I eat meat at least every third day, I have no problems. Usually red meat, but occasionally I'll eat chicken. I do like my fish, and in some schools of thought, fish are considered okay for veg's. By the way, a little Budhhist trivia, but Buddha was not a vegetarian. Nor did he say you had to be one. Remember at the time, Buddha and his followers were fed by the the kindness of the people, where ever they were. He said it was okay to eat meat, if it was already part of the meal and was offered to you. But, it was not okay for the family or individual to kill something specifically to feed you. Also, the Dalai Lama is not a vegetarian. He eats meat every other day. Doctor's orders. Seems he has the same problem as I (or I have the same problem as He). Now, I also buy/eat organic as much as possible. If it's available organic, that's what I buy. My meat is free range/organic. Generally, when I eat out, it's veg. Normally, I don't eat meat that I haven't cooked/prepared. When I travel by air, if it's available, I order a veg meal. If someone can tell me how I can otherwise get Vit B12, without repeating all the problems, I'd go back to vegetarian.
Brad Ellin: That was an extremely personal, fair, and reasonable message. Thank you for your honesty and level-headedness. You did what you could to live as conscientiously as was within your means. You weren't able to, so you do the best you presently can. You tried, it didn't work, you made adjustments. I believe the main point us "Vegetarian Crusaders" are trying to make is that most people simply won't "Try". Even worse, the same people that won't even "Try" insist on degrading the efforts of those that do "Try". This is what I don't get. Thank you again, Mr. Ellin, for sharing that with us.
