Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by Satori81, Dec 26, 2004.

  1. jh1

    jh1 Valued Member

    Really? What happened, details please?
  2. Chickenwrist

    Chickenwrist New Member

    Some USSDs became Z Ultimate Self Defense Studios

    The last time I checked, it looked like a little more than a 50--50 split. I think I counted 67 dojos which remained USSD and approximatly 75 which became ZUSDS.
  3. bcleopard

    bcleopard New Member

  4. shaolinkempo2

    shaolinkempo2 New Member

    Long-time USSD Student - Great Experience

    Just like making any important choice in life, like where to spend your valuable free-time and money, make an informed decision.

    In reading all the threads in this site/forum, there is a lot of USSD bashing... 90% of it uninformed, and blatantly untruthful. Visit a USSD school and talk to the instructor.

    One of the founding instructors I've come to know and respect is Master Jack Turner at the USSD Irvine 1, studio. Make the drive and talk to him or any of his students.

    Ask away with any questions regarding the art, his experience with it, and tell him what your goals are and what you hope to get from your martial arts training. Ask to see one of the student manuals and spend 20min reading through it and see if you've read anything like it. It is not the Bible, but the book has been revised and updated through the years and is a great reference guide and reinforcement tool that other schools do not offer.

    I think you'll find the truth a refreshing thing to hear.
  5. shaolinkempo2

    shaolinkempo2 New Member

    Wow, you obviously hate USSD.

    I'm sorry you couldn't find a teacher that met your goals, and feel like bashing a school I've had the exact opposite experience training with 10yrs.

    Just a quick side question - do you belong to a gym (Bally's, Family, etc), do you shop at chain grocery store (Ralphs, Albertsons, etc), do you get your coffee at (Starbucks, Coffee Bean, etc). If you do, have you ever had a bad experience at any one of those places and then gone on a rant to destroy the image of other store in the chain??

    Again, I'm sorry 4yrs into your training to finally decided to leave, but I can't tell you how many stories I've heard from others in the last 20yrs about people's experiences at single-instructor Karate, Kenpo, TKD, Aikido, schools who had a poor experience... that were those boutique arts schools.

    But in being a logical person, I still wouldn't support them bagging on that particular art because of one instructor??
  6. Aegis

    Aegis River Guardian Admin Supporter

    Just out of interest, is the katana form shown in this video (after the Chinese sword form), which apparently took 1st place in the weapons division, indicative of the sort of training received in this traditional Japanese weapon within USSD?

    I ask because it was suggested by Youtube as something I might like, and it's quite frankly horrible.

    [ame=""]YouTube - 2009 USSD NW Tournament - Shaolin Sword, Katana[/ame]
  7. Aegis

    Aegis River Guardian Admin Supporter

    Similar video, equally horrible use of the katana...

    [ame=""]YouTube - USSD Weapons Form: Katana - Sensei Bryan Buckhorn - 1st Place Performance[/ame]
  8. dianhsuhe

    dianhsuhe Co-Founder: Glow-Do

    Has it been revised and updated as to show the actual correct lineage of "Charlie"? My manual (1992) had a link from him to Cerio to Professor Chow. LOL

    Jack Turner was always one of the "exceptions" to the rule regarding the USSD.

    The system is still watered down McDojo garbage generally. Ask me how I know-
  9. bcleopard

    bcleopard New Member

    Well, it was the katana form, rather than the shaolin sword form shown, that won first place in the weapons instructors division at that tournament.
  10. bcleopard

    bcleopard New Member

    As a matter of curiosity, was your experience with USSD in one of the locations that has now been seized by Z-Ultimate?
  11. shaolinkempo2

    shaolinkempo2 New Member

    Dianhsue -

    So by saying you do respect Jack Turner, how do you call the art he's been teahcing 25+ years "watered down McDojo garbage"?

    By the quick dismissal of the entire Shoalin Kempo art, I can only sumize that you are ignorant or a bandwagor basher.

    Please, fill us in on your inner knowledge of the art and what other style or teaching compared to Jack Turner that makes you say that?

    Enquiring minds are waiting....
  12. shaolinkempo2

    shaolinkempo2 New Member

    Also, as far as the lineage...

    This is one of the only things the "boutique martial arts" USSD bashers ever want to talk about is their family history. My great grandpappy was "so and so".

    Let me ask... do you put your own Family Doctors and Dentist to the same litmus test? Did you ask them if they came from a long traceable line of doctor's or dentists before you started seeing them.... or did you see the Diploma on the wall and trust that they knew what they were doing?
  13. shaolinkempo2

    shaolinkempo2 New Member


    I've had many friends move up the ranks in TKD, American Kenpo, Aikido, and without fail none of them said their school was perfect.

    Here are some of the criticisms I'll point out about the above schools I've witnessed:

    1) Ego or attitude of teacher. Many of these instructors go to Open Tournaents, win a trophy,and then proclaim themselves "GrandChampions", and the ego follows them. Some were downright scary, I would never take a child anywhere near these schools.

    2) Overally MMA-focused. Fight, fight, fight... good if you want to become a fighter or compete for money. Not so good if you want to learn an art with a history behind it, have a defensive attitude toward your training, or enjoy being with other people who are not training just to fight.

    3) Widely varying levels of warm-up. Some have none, while others do a decent job. I'll point out the Elephant in the room here - but ask nearly anyone that's ever taken TKD and left, why the left. My guess is that 50%+ will admit to a groin/hamstring injury because they couldn't wait to emulate the high-kicks they saw their instructor doing.

    4) Very short belt tests. I suppose you can give a Black Belt Test that last 90min... really though?

    5) The practicality of using any of their knowledge to defend themselves was non-existent 4 or 5 belts into it - due to the complexity/timing/training it took to get even halfway decent at the art.
  14. Aegis

    Aegis River Guardian Admin Supporter

    Yes, and that's why I wanted to ask about it. I've studied the Japanese sword a little over the years and have had the privilege to train with some extremely well-respected instructors. Their techniques looked nothing like those katana forms.

    The cuts are ineffective in many places, the stances were usually too deep with various limbs sticking out in just the right place to be attacked by another swordsman and the twirling of the blade was simply pointless. All in all it looked like a combination of baton-twirling and movie-fu, neither of which should be considered a winning performance in any art which actually values the true principles of Japanese swordwork (i.e. efficiency and subtlety of motion).

    I can't comment on the self defence of this art, but if I was asked to rate an organisation based on the winning performance of this tournament arranged and refereed by USSD, I'd advise people to move on to the next possible school. I can only hope the self defence/unarmed work shows a little more promise.
  15. dianhsuhe

    dianhsuhe Co-Founder: Glow-Do


    1. Did I say I respect Jack Turner? I merely pointed out what I have read and heard over and over and that is that he was "good". This is from USSD instructors who said he was one of the better technical guys in the org.

    2. Quick dismissal? I was in the system for a couple of years and left for another system where I was able to learn real Kempo. And yes, lineage is important to me. Are you saying that lineage is not important to USSD when they "attached" to Cerio, then the Shaolin Monks. If any org. has ever tried to grab-on to lineage it is the USSD with the Chinese temple and whatnot.

    I do not think USSD is worthless, I do believe there are some good teachers in the system and maybe a few good techniques, as you would find anywhere, but I stand by the "McDojo" part.

    Let's turn this around on you- Have you trained in other systems? More specifically other Kempo systems? If so, how is the USSD better? If not, how do you know if the USSD is good?

    Defending the USSD, as MANY have tried, has proven to be almost indefensible. Maybe you can finally turn us around.
  16. jh1

    jh1 Valued Member

    I would also want to know that they went to a reputable med school, and want to know where they did their internship.
  17. dianhsuhe

    dianhsuhe Co-Founder: Glow-Do

    Sorry, could not resist when I saw this one...

    2. You stepped into a trap there. An art with a history behind it? What IS the history exactly and why is it important to have in one's art? (I like history, lineage and tradition but you were the one lecturing me about this)

    3. Warm-ups? REALLY? A good smart warm-up IS KEY but that would not make my top 10 list with regards to issues I have with other systems or schools. (Hint: Most of the issues are with SELF-DEFENSE)

    Look, ShaolinKempo- You are obviously a smart and well-meaning person but these things are just too easy...Fish in a barrel.

    USSD has been perceived as a McDojo by the HUGE majority of martial artists on every web-site forum I have ever seen for what? 15 years? There is claim after claim to support this, we have not just former students like myself who spent a couple years, but we have former instructors who are first in line to call USSD a McDojo. Most USSD threads are locked or closed or better yet moved to "Horror Stories" sections on various sites. How do you explain this?

    Does USSD have their own private forum like these? As they do with tournaments? (Yet another reason they are not respected as much)

    I give you credit you have nads at least,
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2010
  18. dianhsuhe

    dianhsuhe Co-Founder: Glow-Do

    Almost missed this one...

    So you are saying that a USSD "diploma" should be viewed the same way as err...I dunno a degree from DUKE UNIVERSITY or the like? LOL
    Do you feel that way?

    It is not the "seeing the diploma on the wall and trusting them" as much as it is seeing the diploma on the wall FROM A WELL RESPECTED, ACCREDITED UNIVERSITY that earns my trust.

    Go ahead and keep teeing 'em up and I'll knock-em down!
  19. Tiger_RF

    Tiger_RF New Member

    i am a former studnet AND instructor with USSD. while i enjoyed my time there and feel it gave me a great start in the martial arts i can tell you that they DO NOT practice what they preach. which is greatly evident in the fact that recently the majority of the board of directors staged what could basically be deemed a hostile take over and split from materra forming zultimate studios of self defense (the DUMBEST name i have ever heard for a martial arts school right behind pimpit martial arts [yes that's a real school here in so cal]). they have outright lied in articles about them and tried to make themselves out to be something they are not when further digging is done. i will admit when i was with them i "drank the kool aid" so to speak and bought into everything that was told to me. would i call them a mcdojo? no because i hate that term and think it is actually pretty ignorant sounding, BUT i have lost alot of respect for a company that was once a great martial arts chain...

    i know stories behind much of what they toute as gospel and history and how those stories began. i also know how matterra really got that monument he is so proud of outside the shaolin temple....

    believe me when i tell you do some diigging on your own. things are definitely not what they seem on the surface with them...
  20. bcleopard

    bcleopard New Member

    Yes, but wouldn't a huge majority of them like to have been as successful as USSD? It is true that USSD indulges in a variety of business practices that would be better suited to a McDojo, but I nonetheless suspect that much of the criticism I see of USSD is sour grapes.

    Better still, why do people keep flogging the same dead horse? The way that certain masters operated their schools goes a long way to explaining the large number of disaffected instructors in certain regions, notably Colorado and Utah. Most of the said masters now head up Z-Ultimate, and they're not coming back.

    My former school did, until somebody hacked it and uploaded porn. Not even good porn. Now ninja porn, that would have been something.

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