Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by Satori81, Dec 26, 2004.

  1. Colin Linz

    Colin Linz Valued Member

    I quite like Super Supreme. I know this because I have tried other styles, and I will occasionally try a different flavour; but when I want something that I know I’m going to enjoy, I stick with the Super Supreme.

    In martial arts terms; and I know that many will disagree with this, I think we are better of sticking to something that suits our needs. From past experience I have learnt that studying other arts while I train in my chosen art has been counter productive. My chosen art covers a wide range of technical areas. I could perhaps experience these elsewhere, but the techniques wouldn’t work as seamlessly with each other. Further more the principles, theory, and methods of application can be at odds with different arts. So rather than learning a cohesive art that works harmoniously within itself, you end up with just a bunch of techniques that may or may not fit well together well.

    These are just my thoughts, they reflect my specific experience and are not meant as definitive answer to cross training. I just think that it is worth thinking about these issues rather than just accept the philosophy of cross training at face value.
  2. flyingleopard

    flyingleopard New Member

    Yes you have tried other things and now you know what you like the best. Sounds like this guy hasn't., so it would be good for him to try different things, to find out what he likes the best. And Villari's and USSD is so bastardized no one knows exactly what it is, but it is definetly not Shaolin, maybe he should go take a real Shaolin class some time.
  3. octopic

    octopic New Member

    I'm not sure what you mean by this. Maybe you use the term bastardized in the same way I use hybrid ;) The Shaolin Kempo system is a hybrid of a ton of stuff. That's exactly what it is. There are influences from Karate, Kajukenbo, Chin-na, western boxing, five animal kung fu,...

    One of the problems is that the kung fu influences really don't start to be a major part of the style until 2nd Dan. Thus, people who haven't made it that far, and haven't had an instructor who's made it past that point, don't get a chance to see those influences affect the way the style is presented. Is Shaolin Kempo "true Shaolin"? No, and anyone who tries to claim that it is a pure kung fu style is an idiot. Good instructors give their students hints of the kung fu elements as they go up in the ranks.
  4. flyingleopard

    flyingleopard New Member

    I've been to real shaolin classes and so have you sir, which is why I think they should call it kempo not shaolin kempo since the shaolin isn't tell after 1st black. Call it shaolin after 1st black, not before and dont misslead people. Just say this move is from this and this form is from that. What do you guys think?
  5. octopic

    octopic New Member

    I see your point. I make sure to tell potential students that they won't see the pure kung fu stuff for several years, that the style basically starts out with Karate, melds into Kempo, and the Kung Fu comes last. That said, I give out animal techniques all the way up the ranks, and we talk about adapting our various techniques to fit different animal styles. For example, if there's a technique that is basically a tiger technique, you'll sometimes be asked to adapt the moves into a crane technique. While you don't see your first kung fu form until 2nd dan, the five animal kung fu is a framework that is used to teach much of the material that leads up to that point.

    Did GM Villari make a mistake when he named the style? I don't know, I haven't had the chance to ask him why he named it what he did. Also keep in mind the context in which the style was named. It was over 30 years ago, before the resurgance of the temple. If the style was being put together today, it might have been named something else. Does that mean that the name of the style should change? I think that would be more problematic.
  6. KenpoDavid

    KenpoDavid Working Title

    Wow, we don't teach it like that at all.

    We do take students into increasingly more flowing techniques, as their agility and realxedness improves. But we have consistent kempo principle that apply throughout the style. But I don;t think anyone at our schools would think about it like that.

    Is that an explicit idea at your school, or is that just your characterization of how it looks to you? Not saying that would be wrong, just curious if that is how it is planned to be taught.

  7. Satori81

    Satori81 Never Forget...

    Ok...someone please clarify one point for me.

    Where did the "Defensive Maneuvers" come from?

    I always figured they were straight from Kenpo, since as far as I know Kung Fu doesn't focus so closely on "Punch Chain Techniques".

    However, the instructor at the last USSD school I visited (see my "Revisit to USSD" thread in general) said that the DMs were straight from the Shaolin Temple.

    I then asked a loaded question and said, "Oh, you mean the 18 Fists of LoHan Set?", to which he said, "Yeah, that one."

    Of course...we all know how ludicrous that statement is...

    Anyway...where did the DMs come from?

    May you achieve
  8. Pacificshore

    Pacificshore Hit n RUN!

    Perhaps "defensive manuvers" is just a replacement word for "self defense sets" :confused:
  9. Aegis

    Aegis River Guardian Admin Supporter

    Somewhat on topic...

    I've only seen the videos from Vilari's website, and quite frankly I was not impressed at what I saw (either the site itself or the videos). Is his system considered to be good kempo, bad kempo or good kempo gone bad with commercialisation?

    This is slightly relevant to this thread as the USSD stuff comes from him.

    Damn, was going to suggest watching his videos, but they appear to have been taken down... Maybe they were getting too much of a slating. Let me basically summarise:

    Very unrealistic looking attack/defence drills with absolute compliance by the partner to the point that they would graciously lie down on their back from a roundhouse kick to the chest with no way to generate any force in it. Kicking knives out of hands. Throws which appeared to lack any form of balance breaking or efficient body movement...

    Anyway, this is what I remember, to be more sure I'd have to review the video clips of his that I happen to have on my hard drive.
  10. Satori81

    Satori81 Never Forget...

    Villari was actually pretty respected as a fighter back in the day, and his system is really just Cerio Kenpo with kung fu forms after black belt. His ranking is a bit controversial, and its rumored that his kung fu training was undocumented, and that he only attained shodan under Nick Cerio.

    The problem stems from the commercialization of the style once he made a name for himself. I feel that many essential elements found in Cerio Kenpo and Karazenpo were left out/modified for mass appeal...and it worked.

    I "Defenseive Maneuver" involves stepping back into a cat stance to block a punch, striking with a sweeping tiger claw that carries into a roundhouse kick...after this, the opponent slowly lays down, whereupon the defender then leaps onto the prone attacker, and performs a series of strikes while bent over.

    How practical is this?

    May you achieve
  11. flyingleopard

    flyingleopard New Member

  12. Aegis

    Aegis River Guardian Admin Supporter

    That defensive maneuver is one of the ones that was demonstrated on the Villari advert as part of their "this is the ultimate self defence system" advert.

    Quite simply, it looked awful, but it was the closest they came to demonstrating an actual self defence technique on the entire advert!
  13. Satori81

    Satori81 Never Forget...

    Sparring is also typically a rarity, and usually reserved for schools that heavily compete in the "Closed" tournaments. When sparring is done, though, it is nasty point sparring that would make TKD laugh. Lots of "Side Kick, Backfist...SCORE!"

    Again, the system is fun. You get to do a lot of interesting forms, there is a lot of Uke/Tori style defensive techniques, and the whole "Animal Methodolgy" is very entertaining. The style also has roots in awesome systems like Karazenpo and Kajukenbo.

    My problem stems from their stupid pricing, their undertrained "CHIEF INSTRUCTORS", and the misrepresentation of the art as an ancient "Sheeeowlin CONG FOO" style.

    Still...I will continue to visit EVERY USSD I come across in the abstract hope that I can find a good, non-money grubbing instructor.

    May you achieve
  14. flyingleopard

    flyingleopard New Member

    Good luck.
    Why dont you try a villaris school?
    their prices are genearally cheaper.
    There is one in Lake forest in california run by 7th degree master robert bombalier,
    Theres one in Los Angeles run by an 8th degree master Armen Heroian, 818-957-7544.
    Hope you find something.
    One thing a friend of mine told me is that as a stundent of ussd you never get past 2nd dan unless you run a school, dont know if its true?
  15. KenpoDavid

    KenpoDavid Working Title

    The defense combos come straight out of kajukenbo's alphabet combos, modified by Cerio and Villari and probably USSD. Our founder took them as a base and went back to Cerio and Kajukenbo to clean them up and remove dumb crap like that one specifically I know about... we do it a lot differently although you could recognize it.
  16. flyingleopard

    flyingleopard New Member

    How do you do combo 4?
  17. octopic

    octopic New Member

    Is it explicit? No, but it is how it looks to me. We teach basics in a manner that is similar to traditional karate. Our first two forms are karate forms. Starting at blue belt, I start to put more emphasis on 'flow' (1 kata is a great form to work on this with). I could go on, but I don't think it is wrong to say that the first 6 months of a student's Shaolin Kempo Karate training is more Karate than Kempo or Kung Fu. The next several years of their training is more Kempo than Karate or Kung Fu. The training after that will see ever increasing proportions of Kung Fu. Is this a rough estimate? Sure, but I feel that it is reasonably accurate.
  18. octopic

    octopic New Member

    From a straight in punch while in a fighting horse stance:

    1) Do a #5 block while stepping back with the right leg
    2) Grab the attacker's arm and throw it in a clock-wise circle releasing and the low point
    3) Keep the circle going and rake the attackers face with a tiger claw
    4) Roundhouse ball kick with the right leg to the chest
    --Hopefully the attacker falls to the ground here--
    5) Twist step to close the distance to the atttacker and axe kick with the right leg to their groin
    6) Jump up in the air and land with your feet on the attacker's face, one on each side of their nose
    7) Front two knuckle punch to their face with the right hand
    8) Front two knuckle punch to their face with the left hand
    9) Cross and cover

    Okay, a couple of comments on this combination. Is it one that I would ever use on the street? No, not in a million years. Have I seen people that could pull it off? Yes, I have. If you were really going to do it, you'd have to make sure that your rake brought their head down to the level where you could place the round house ball kick right to the right side of their head. If you did that, and executed the kick with sufficient force, you could potentially knock them on their back. It is not a particularly high percentage shot, and I'm not trying to defend the effectiveness of it as a technique. One thing to keep in mind is the context in which it is taught. At purple belt, you learn two pinion, and combinations 4 and 18. All three of these pieces of material are focused on showing attacks at different levels on the body. With the exception of the takedown on #3, purple belt is the first time that you really get system material that is focused on how the body reacts to your actions. #4 is not a practical technique, but has its uses as a teaching tool in the context in which it is taught. Could it be replaced by a more practical technique? Sure. I'm going to see a master this weekend, and if I get a chance, I'll ask him about combo 4 and see what he has to say.
  19. flyingleopard

    flyingleopard New Member

    Hey oct, why doesn't grand master villari get certified from the temple? Mattera and da masco did.
  20. octopic

    octopic New Member

    You'd have to ask him. I'm loathe to answer for him... What would getting certified by the current temple get him that he doesn't already have?

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