USSD Remakes Tak Wah Eng's Forms?

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by Gufbal1981, Apr 13, 2007.

  1. Gufbal1981

    Gufbal1981 waiting to train...

    Ok...Here's USSD's remakes of the following forms from Master Tak Wah Eng. Bear in mind that they claim Shaolin in their lineage. However, look at the movements...does this LOOK like Shaolin to you? Looks like Kempo to me...


    [ame=""]Shaolin Temple - USSD guys - YouTube[/ame]




    [ame=""]Shaolin Temple - USSD's "Snake Form" - YouTube[/ame]

    Buddha Fist

    [ame=""]Shaolin Temple - USSD's "Buddha Fist" - YouTube[/ame]

    Please bear in mind that this is the person they are stealing the forms from (sorry about the was the only 5 animal clip on youtube i could find of his.)

    [ame=""]Tak Wah Eng's Five animals - YouTube[/ame]

    What are your thoughts?
  2. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    God how I do hate USSD [​IMG]
  3. Gufbal1981

    Gufbal1981 waiting to train...

    doesn't it look like kempo and not shaolin?
  4. 14 Kempo

    14 Kempo Valued Member

    Love them or hate them, I am with them at the moment and I know that at least where I am located, we are told the forms are from Master Tak. Now they are most likely modified, (I know they are, but I wasn't enlightened by instructor) but so is just about every other form or technique within most every system, but especially in an SKK system ... I see nothing wrong with that.
    I can, however, agree with there being a problem if they totally deny where it originated from, but do they even know? Obviously the upper ranks do, but have they expressed that down the chain ... point being, may not be a local instructor's fault if he doesn't know where the form, or technique for that matter, originated.
    A lot of people, choose to do what they are told. They don't ask questions, they aren't told ... this isn't specific to USSD.
  5. Gufbal1981

    Gufbal1981 waiting to train...

    I'm not USSD anymore. I'm not FV either. I'm a loaded cannon ready to fire.

    Those forms are very modified. I have a huge problem with them doing the forms the way they do them. Look at the snake for instance...faster doesn't mean you're a snake...especially if you are throwing stiff strikes. It just means you're going faster with stiff strikes. The guy that's doing the form is a 4th degree. He's good, but he's doing KEMPO.

    This looks more like kung fu to me:

    [ame=""]Shaolin Kung Fu - 3 Animal Forms - YouTube[/ame]

    Why does it look like Kung Fu? Fluidity! The strikes may be fast, but they are fluid. There's substance to it. Kung Fu isn't just about low stances and looking pretty. There's energy in the movements.

    Let's move on to the Tiger...same thing. I don't see Kung Fu in his movements. Now, this is Fu Jow Pai...Black Tiger system. This is what Tiger Claw should look like.

    [ame=""]Classic Tak Wah Eng - YouTube[/ame]

    Now, it's not the tiger form, but it's Tiger. Black Tiger rips and tears. I don't see ripping and tearing in the USSD "tiger" form.

    Now, Buddha fist. This is the shaolin buddha fist done by a Fu Jow Pai guy

    [ame=""]Kung Fu Fist - Lo Han Chuan - YouTube[/ame]

    Not the same form...however, I've learned their Buddha Fist from Master Tak and I'll say this...not the same either.

    They are all doing kempo in the USSD clips. Not the same as representing them as Kung Fu. It's Kempo. I hate how they are saying they were taught the forms to USSD via Master Tak when they know it's not true. Why can't they just say that they learned from the Steve DeMasco tapes? If they truely learned them from Master Tak, then why was it when I wanted to teach them his way, it wasn't ok. It wasn't their way. Therefore, the forms are remade.
  6. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Kung Fu, another term that is really messed up by those who like to mess up words and information.

    Really should be apparant as to how things have gone from one location (art) to another and then claimed to be theirs. So many stories so little time.

    Is it Kung Fu because it is fluid. No it is Kung Fu because it is supposed to be Chinese. Wushu in reality.

  7. Gufbal1981

    Gufbal1981 waiting to train...

    The forms are not WuShu forms. They are from traditional Kung Fu systems, such as Fu Jow Pai and Hung Gar. It's not what they are doing. It's Kempo at it's finest, but still Kempo. Kung Fu has particular attributes that makes it Kung Fu. Fluidity is one. There are many more.
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2007
  8. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Guf I just googled some snake forms to get an idea of the fluidity that you meant, and then I watched the USSD snake form again. All I can say is LOL@the hard stopping motions topped with "Kiah's!" in a supposed Kung Fu form.
  9. Gufbal1981

    Gufbal1981 waiting to train...

    FINALLY! SOMEONE UNDERSTANDS ME! If they were really doing Kung Fu, they wouldn't be turning into Japanese stylists in the form. Sad. Hey Kempofist, I'm coming out to NYC soon. Think I could come and train with you guys at Serra's school?
  10. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    Very few people do 5 animal forms the way they were intended to be done. What has happened more recently is that Nanquan has become a culmination of the 5 animals in a bastardized but at the same time, super authentic looking version. I guess what I am saying is that 5 animals are supposed to look like what Nanquan is now. Below is a Nanquan clip. The kempo guys are doing similar techniques, but you can see they are missing a lot of the movement.

    [ame=""]NanQuan - YouTube[/ame]


    Here's another version of the same form. Closer to one that I learned. Hard on knees so I don't do that one no more.

    [ame=""]nan quan from china's 1990 national competition - YouTube[/ame]
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2007
  11. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Nuck, what I find interesting about those forms (not sure what animal/animals they were meant to resemble) was that although he had plenty of hard stopping motions, that doesn't mean he was stiff or rigid in those stops. Instead he uses fluidity to add that snap to his motions, like a punctuation mark on the end of his moves. Interesting vids.
  12. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    No idea. When you coming out, and what's your experience? I'm not sure on their policies on non-students training for a week or so. I do know that guys from other gyms or fight teams often come in and train, but I'm not sure if they're charged (depending on who they are), and I do know they offer free trial classes to try it out for new students though, so maybe you could just say you're trying the place out and get some rolling in.
  13. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Kung Fu and Wushu:

    Chinese martial arts describes the enormous variety of martial art styles originating in China. Kung fu (Chinese: 功夫 pinyin: Gōngfu), Wushu (Traditional Chinese: 武術) and Kuoshu (國術) are popular Chinese terms that have become synonymous with Chinese martial arts abroad. In reality, Wushu and Kung fu have very different definitions which both describe not only the separate categories of martial arts study that they embody, but exist as blanket Chinese terms not always referencing martial arts. Colloquially, kung fu (or gong fu) alludes to any individually cultivated skill. Wushu is a more precise term that refers to martial activities in general, and has also become the name for a modern sport similar to gymnastics involving the performance of adapted Chinese bare-handed and weapons forms (taolu 套路) judged to a set of contemporary aesthetic criteria for points.

    This is what I was refering to:

    I believe we have a little bit of a missunderstanding, regarding why it is a Kung Fu form and why it is not. You are being to simplistic I believe.

    Hard and soft can be in a single form or not. If the form was what the founder, wanted it to be. I think you are trying to put it all back in the box, it is not that tidy anymore.

    In fact it is totally confused in some schools. If you don't like it don't do it. BJJ is not Sambo but they have similar moves and holds and submits. Some need to put in more nouns it seems. While others need to do less form work it appears.

    I hope you enjoy your trip. I have been to many schools and stopped in. They don't mind especially if you are willing to pay :D
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2007
  14. Gufbal1981

    Gufbal1981 waiting to train...

    Ok, your discussion about Kung Fu and Wushu is about to be finished. People in China don't use the words Kung fu to describe martial arts. EVERYONE has Kung Fu there! You learn it in cooking school...changing diapers...etc. Wu Shu means martial school...all martial arts in China are Wu Shu. This is not the conversation of this thread so let's drop it.

    I can guarantee that Master Tak didn't want the forms to look like the way Steve DeMasco did them in his videos. That's why he created his own DVD series. That's the point of this thread.
  15. Gufbal1981

    Gufbal1981 waiting to train...

    June or July. I have just started training with Rickson Gracie's son Kron. So, hopefully I will be a little better than the average white belt by then.
  16. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    When I was in PR. China (1995) this was not the case. I am not sure if this has changed of if someone has taught this to you. Here are the terms I I understand them as taught to me in China.

    Gung Fu - Exercise, Hard Work, but also encompasses martial arts in general. Nobody would say I am going to cook, change diapers, masterbate and call that gung fu.

    Wu Shu - Nationalized martial arts sports program is when this term was really used. Wu Shu encompasses both forms and fighting, but does not encompass older art forms such as Taijiquan or any of the older Shaolin or Daoist forms.

    If I were to have an informal conversation in PR China I would not say I am going to go do Gung fu. You would usually say that you are going to go "play." That is more recognizable to most Chinese. However, if you were asked, you would say what style specifically. I am going to go play Tai Chi. Or I am going to go play Nan Quan.

    This information is over 10 years old and based on my time and training in Nanning. It was no different in Beijing. However, I am not sure if it is the same in Taiwan.
  17. Gufbal1981

    Gufbal1981 waiting to train...

    It has changed. I have a friend in Chinese Medical School right now and that's who I consulted on the matter.
  18. g-bells

    g-bells Don't look up!

    ?don't all chinesse martial arts stem from gung fu?
  19. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    WHAT? That is like saying don't all economy cars come from a car. Gung Fu is a generalized word that relates to martial arts training among a few other things.

    You should get a second opinion (haha!) Not that I can't see it happening to some extent, but to have a completely different usage of a several words in 10 years time seems odd. And I am not talking about the kids saying "bad" now means "cool" and "stupid" now means "cool."
  20. Gufbal1981

    Gufbal1981 waiting to train...

    I will check with another friend that I have going to a different OMD program, but I'm positive he'll say the same thing. I think they are going by the characters, but don't take my word as the bible on it and I will definately check my source.

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