Using Wing Chun principles with a knife or a baton?

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by mewtwo55555, Jun 24, 2018.

  1. mewtwo55555

    mewtwo55555 Valued Member

    So first can we please leave any wing chun bashing out of this.

    Any-who I am wondering if I can get some input on some ways I can incorporate wing chun and a knife or a baton. I know there are weapon the baat cham dao and the luk dim boon kwan. But I do not carry those with me. Also they would be a hassle and they are both double handed weapons. I am only interested in single handed weapons.

    What I do carry with me is a knife with a 7 inch blade. Perfectly legal where I live. I also have a 2 foot baton. I do not carry the baton with me. But I can carry an expandable baton. So I am wondering if anyone has any advice on incorporating a single knife or a baton into wing chun?

  2. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Never carry a weapon that you are not trained to use.
    It will be taken from you. it will be used against you.
    if that weapon is a knife it is highly likely that you will be killed.

    given the choice of carrying a baton or a knife I would always chose the baton. a baton can be highly effective in keeping an opponent at range and at causing damage to an opponents limbs that will defeat there will to fight. if a baton is taken from you and used against you it is much less likely that you will be killed.

    Carrying any weapon should be a carefully considered choice. In many cases being known to carry a weapon can make you more likely to be attacked rather than less.
  3. mewtwo55555

    mewtwo55555 Valued Member

    Why did you even post this? This has nothing to do with what I asked. You assume I have no training in a knife or a baton. Well I do. The knife and baton I have learned are separate from my wing chun. As of right now the way I think of it is I have my baton training my knife training and my empty hand wing chun training. How can I use wing chun with just 1 knife instead of 2? Or use a baton which is 2 feet long instead of a pole that is almost 9 feet long?
  4. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    I posted the comment because as a instructor i feel it is important that students understand the consequences of taking up a weapon. In the UK many people are in jail for long sentences because they have decided to take up a weapon without understanding the consequences.

    a knife is a weapon that kills. you are asking us on the forum for advice on better ways to kill human beings.
  5. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    He posted it because either

    1. Your wing chin skill is low


    2. Your self professed baton and knife skills are

    Given that you fail to recognize how to integrate I am going with

    3. Both areas are lacking

    Short answer is Ask your Sifu - they will know what you do and don’t know quite well. And before you retort with a “how do you know how good I am?” Question, the fact you are asking what you are shows your skill level is not high
    Dead_pool, Dan Bian and Simon like this.
  6. mewtwo55555

    mewtwo55555 Valued Member

    And now I am leaving the forum. I live in the usa where carrying knives and guns is legal. As if my units of measurement were not a dead giveaway. Martial arts are at their core a way to kill people. I dont see why you are so touchy on this subject. Unless if has something to do with your government imprisoning you for writing stuff on forums and such?
  7. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

  8. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Stupid statement right there.

    Ever considered martial arts as a way of defending yourself, or even a system of mental, physical and spiritual growth?

    Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
    SWC Sifu Ben, Dead_pool and Hannibal like this.
  9. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Mewtwo, Tom brought up points that any responsible person in martial arts brings up when the topic of weapons training comes up. It seems to me that your reaction to him is the reaction that is very touchy. He was very polite. It puzzles me that you are so upset when it seems to me any person who is experienced in weapons training should be happy the points he made are reinforced in a forum where new MAists will see it.

    Maybe some of the other responses- not so politely stated. But surely you have been around forums long enough to not be so shocked/ surprised by this?

    I hope you reconsider leaving. And decide you can handle people stating an opinion on things like training with weapons. You could just state you do have experience without being so upset by an assumption you feel a need to rage quit?

    Respectfully, I have to say that I do hope you have a thicker skin when walking around carrying a weapon.

    If you decide to stay, I would be curious what your Sifu says on the subject you brought up. I don't train WC so I can't be much help.
    David Harrison likes this.
  10. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    And posted bluntly for a reason.

    Firstly the question regarding incorporating a knife into WC practice is a fair one and maybe one his Sifu is better placed to answer.

    But if someone tells you they carry a knife with a 7 inch blade in public then they should expect nothing less that the replies they did.

    I don't have an issue with concealed carry, but a 7 inch blade, then a statement that martial arts are a way of killing people, that changes things in my eyes.

    There are enough weapons fanboys already on the street and the US has more issues than most.

    Knife training, no.

    Blade awareness, yes.

    Get a good instructor and they'll wake you up to just how devastating a weapon the knife is in the first 30 minutes of the session. From there you'll learn respect for the weapon and all future discussions will be different.

    Harsh for a reason.
  11. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    You've previously said you only train WC twice a month, so really if you want any decent level of skill, train more often.

    If you want actual self defence, start working out regularly, and eating more carefully, your far more likily to die from heart disease etc then muggers at comic/furry con.

    If you want a SD knife skill, a 7 inch blade is rediculous, something small and concelable is a far better idea, personally I think knives are tools, and carrying for self defence will get you in more trouble then it's worth.

    Socially people carrying batons etc will definitely be judged by other people, so just be ready for that.
  12. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    "British Imperial System, traditional system of weights and measures used officially in Great Britain from 1824 until the adoption of the metric system beginning in 1965. The United States Customary System of weights andmeasures is derived from it."

    Inches and feet are very well known and used in the UK, as they invented it, so using them doesn't mean its obvious your American at all.
  13. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Well,I was trying to not mention specifics on purpose. Sigh* But if you want to talk about it. What you talk about above wasn't what I had an issue with though- I largely agree with that.

    Was there a need for "don't let the door hit you on the way out?":( With regards to your post. That is what bothered me. What does that accomplish towards education or constructive conversation? And sorry, but Hannibal's just bashing his skill level was not constructive either IMO. And saying Mewtwo's skills were low and citing that as the reason for Tom's input was not only impolite, it wasn't accurate as Tom answered the question himself quite differently (and politely). Although past that, I liked the part about asking his Sifu- that was good advice.

    I am not down with someone stating something one disagrees with (and I largely disagreed with the same things you did) but answering it with meme's going " well ...bye" and etc. Yeah, it was not polite IMO. I like and respect both you and Hannibal, but I am not a fan of this approach.

    What I can't figure out is how he was upset by Tom's perfectly polite answer though.

    The original topic is- as we both agree - a worthy one for conversation. But there are ways to question the other concerns in a way that doesn't just shut people down from wanting to participate. This could have be an interesting thread. The idea of weapons training influenced by principles of particular styles.
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2018
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  14. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    To answer your original question Mew:

    Wing Chun has a whole set and particular set of movements for double butterfly knives. (Not those expandable butterfly knives, they look more like two meat cleavers in all honesty). I would imagine that there would be your best place to start in regards to weapons and Wing Chun. Your instructor should know these sets and how to use them.

    I would also advise that if you are serious about carrying a knife and using it that you go to a class like J.T's and learn just how difficult it is to actually use a knife in a fight. It is VERY hard. It brings lots of other issues to the table that just aren't worth dealing with. For instance when would it be legal for you to pull out a knife? If someone throws some punches at you and you stab them it's murder. You also have to live with the consequences of potentially killing someone. Literally blood on your hands and it just doesn't sound worth it imo. As cool as it feels and powerful and what not, it's an illusion of power. The reality is that having to stab someone would be an incredibly traumatic experience.

    I also want to say that don't think the world is full of good people and bad people and that someone who attacks you is not necessarily evil or vindictive. Some people are just desperate, others grew up in broken homes maybe beaten by a parent.

    It's not like comic books at all, where the bad guy just likes living like that.

    So I implore you to reconsider carrying a knife. You might have to use it but it's a lot of responsibility. If you are really worried about the possibility of someone attacking you with a knife, I would recommend buying one of these hoodies or jumpers:


    Hey are slash proof and work against knives. A stab might peirce it but it would get stuck and not penetrative your skin fatally.
  15. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    A few things.

    If someone threatens to leave they are wanting everyone to say, "oh don't go, stay and we'll sort things out."

    Threats generally work like that.

    I'm not playing that game, so if they want to leave that's fine.

    Next is the carrying of a 7" blade and the statement that martial arts at it's core is about killing people.

    That needs shooting down (sorry about the phrasing) immediately.

    This was the news this morning.

    Teenager killed in London party stabbing

    You won't like this, but there are to many weapon fanboys. I'll remind everyone of this after the next high school shooting.

    Carrying a knife and a baton is going out tooled up.
    Fish Of Doom and Hannibal like this.
  16. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Being patronising, rude and dismissive is not how you change people's attitudes.

    I'll bet a tenner that mewtwo has now thought "screw those guys, I'm carrying that blade everywhere I go now".
  17. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    If I had a penny for every time Hannibal chided someone for suggesting martial arts might have a spiritual dimension... I'd have about 10p by now.
    icefield likes this.
  18. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Actually, it depends on the state and the situation. I totally agree with you about the emotional impact though, from people I know who have had to kill at close quarters.
  19. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    I'd bet his mind was already made up, especially given he said he carries a knife with a 7 inch blade.
    Dead_pool likes this.
  20. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    The chance of ever changing it on MAP has gone forever, that much is certain...

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