It all depends on how you are taught i was taught to hook and redirect in some situations like doing bong lap da to grab the persons arm punch and then let go alot of ying yang stuff and double yang if you can handle the incoming force. You have to remember wc has 0 blocks all deflection we have to reposition our hands, arms, hips and feet to redirect change angles and directions. how will you do bong lap da with a glove? how will you do bong to tan with a glove? how will you fok a incoming punch and with the same hand hit someone in the throat? there is so many things you cant do with gloves...in a real fight are you going to bust out gloves? or fight with your hands? id rather be tranning to fight with my hands without gloves cuz in real fights there is no gloves and they limit technique. And if you dont belive look at all the wing chun techniques and tell me how should i change them to make them work with boxing gloves? how will i make bjj work with boxing gloves? There is martial arts out there that just gloves cant be used to make it effective, look at the design of the wing chun moves their impossible with boxing gloves most of them at least what will a wc person be able to do with boxing gloves? striaght punch? what else? pretty much nothing. This only shows that you have less expierieance then a 19 yer old in fighting/sparring you dont seem to see the limitations that big gloves can bring especially to a system like wing chun where 95% of it is impossible to use with boxing gloves. It also seems like you dont have much tranning in wc if you didint focus alot of your hand positions, angles and redirections because that is what wc people use to avoid getting hit in a fight. with gloves you cant deflect anymore you can only block againts force since you cant hook their hands/forearms to take them out of the line and redirect them away from your body. and if boxing is so much better then wc like you say why dont these boxers fight the wc guys outside of the ring with no gloves? why do the wc guys have to go to the boxers with their gloves and rules to prove wc is worthy? simple facts wc vs boxing with gloves and rules obvis a boxer will win wc vs boxing no gloves no rules my moneys on the wc guy boxing vs bjj no rules no gloves bjj guy will win boxiing vs bjj with boxing gloves and rules boxer will win what is your point anyone can win if the rules favor their system and fighting enviroment. You just cant compare martial arts when one has a rule/glove advantage to it if people want to compare martial arts they should have full out fights no gloves no rules to make it all even so no martial art becomes limited in their own tranning. But then people will say oo yaa its too dangures to do this well then STFU you cant prove that one art is better then any other if one of them has a limit to what it can be used and cant be fully utilized because of this limit. thats like going to a car drag race and having a acura rsx race a freaking honda civic with a vtec engine and some other upgrades but then they say the rsx has too much power and they have to limit it for the other person to be able to race in that class so they have to adjust the chips in the car to make it slower to fit the class taking away its superior design to be able to compete. So the rsx cant use its full potential because of the limits/rules of the competition.
ying yang up the wing wang as far as im concerned.... In WSLVT there is nothing with regard to ying/yang chi/dim mak or any other estoric nonsense have you actually completed the system yet??? how long have you been training exactly if you dont mind me asking? If you really think winning fights depends on bong lap combinations then you are hopelessly lost my friend To be perfectly honest i do bjj as well and can tell you there as well gloves will NOT inhibit me armbarring or triangling or any other sub (except perhaps gi chokes ... but them again we all know no one wears a gi in the ring/street right ) its more about the limitations we place on ourselves!!! at the end of the day when im wearing gloves and sparring im NOT chisauing so i can honestly tell you if you are not wearing gloves of at least 8 oz then you almost definately are NOT doing any meaningful contact. as for the bit about 95% of it is impossible with gloves again it just shows that you really think fighting=chisau=handplay which quite simply dont occur in any meaningful contact scenario against and half decent level partner or if you think all those drills you have no doubt spent time learning will work against someone who hits with a decent level of speed/retraction/follow up the idea of bridging/deflecting isnt what you think.... but then you know this from your vast experience right? dont be so caught up with hand positions rather think of the elbow positions, and what is all this hooking stuff??? do you catch hands? do you equate deflection with hooking?? ok i would like for you to quote the part where i say boxing is so much better?? nah diddnt think so who mentions anything about wc guys 'proving their worth' ? i think its your own insecurities leaking out here my friend Heres a better one....XT18 thinks he knows what hes talking about vs Forever Young who seems to actually try and meet others/spar regularly All i can say to this is if only life were so cut and dry my friend, what about saaaaaaay A 10 year veteran former golden gloves winning pro boxer versus a 6 month bjj white belt? see my point or need i go on? My point (if you care to re-read my original post) was to point out that 'Gloves' do not suddenly make my years of wing chun useless and that the excuses you list are realistically just 'chisau specific' rather than 'Hard sparring' specific and as far as im concerned wing chun is fine with gloves errrrr ever heard of a little thing called NHB? you should check it out sometime, real enlightening like' :bang: Dont know what any of this means its just gibberish, but thanks for trying anyway
Let me ask you something. The posts mentions that you keep busy with several different activities including working out and some boxing/kicking with your BJJ and Judo. What it does'nt clarify is how much experience in those endeavors that you have now. Also there's no mention of how much time is spent with keeping skill levels maintained. Recently I have began to notice a trend in how many people are training even beginners. The influence of MMA often encourages students to learn a fair ammount of material often in a short time. That's no slight against MMA yet is a question of the sensibility of attempting to learn a lot of different things in a short time. Being a well-rounded fighter is a good thing. While having a poor base of skills is not. There's just no way to learn one art form in a short term effort much less several. The more you learn requires the more time needed to sit aside for practice. And most people that I have met seem to have a base in some particular area they can do better than anything else. Consider the following. During the initial two or three years of JKD class every real effort was made by me to learn a complete range of fighting skill. Yet despite a lot of hard work it proved relatively easy for my Taekwondo fanatic brother to shut me down. Granted his experience was likely a big factor. Yet my attempt to absorb to many different things was a larger problem. Maybe with enough hours per day and the best instructors around someone could become proficient in a wide variety of skills in less time. Yet I have also been curious how neccesary developing too broad a set of fighting skills might be. What does seem to prove favorable for me is using some Muay Thai to hit with and going from there to work in a takedown if possible from a clinch. The skills from Wrestling serve me better than say Boxing. What I'm suggesting here is to streamline your material. These days my older brother can still deal with me without too much trouble if we are only using striking base skills. Yet when the door is opened for using takedowns and holds things change. The similarity between our training is that both of spend time practicing a few skills. The difference is he does'nt usually grapple where I always have done as much. Here is what I have been attempting to suggest. Don't focus your training on learning how to Box/Kick (where did those skills come from btw?) while also attempting to learn Wing Chun and keep Judo and BJJ skills at decent levels of proficency. Choose what material from those seems to work for you the best and focus on doing a few things well as opposed to a number of things badly.
im not gonig to quote all 1 by 1 since im lazy right now so ill just make this straight forward. First off you dont even know what ying yang and double yang means its nothing like chi powers or chi sao its more a way of motion. I have around 2 years of wc i learnt 1 year and 3-4 months with my sifu and the last 6-8 months i been trainning with friends. I learnt sil lum tao, chum kiu, start of bil gee(i finished learning the form on my own)i was taught half of the wooden dummy form and of course was taught chi sao. i dont depend on bong lap da or any other techniques as in a fight i dont think of my combination what ever someone is trying to throw at me i will react to it with reflex so anything can come out theirfore boxing gloves can only limit your possiblities of what you can do so your right at disadvanage right now. You do bjj please show me evidance of a bjj guy with boxing gloves winning a fight by submission like you claim you can do with those big gloves i can understand ufc style gloves but boxing..... when im talking about fighting im not talking about chi sao, chi sao is only a exercise for sensetivity and muscle meomory not fighting many people still dont understand that and turn their sparring into chi sao. Boxing gloves do take away at least 90 to 95% of wc i asked how to adopt all my techniques to the gloves you didint answer me how do i make them work with gloves? Im not talknig about chi sao here wc is not like boxing we dont only punch like boxers wc guys also deflect and use other parts of the body as wepons(hands, fists, knees, shoulders, legs, feet) boxing gloves are way too big to hit someone in the throat or under their arm pits punchin the the solar plex with a glove dosent even hurt... but without it does. Alot of techniques in wing chun are really close hand to hand combat gloves are too big and will not allow the wc guy to use his deflectins as intended. now you ask me about hooking in wing chun its present in alot of our moves and a big indecation of it is in the 3rd form bil gee right at the start you shoot your hand forward and you go up and down left to right couple times your learning to hook with your hand. When you shoot your arms out in a fight with bilgee to deflect a incoming punch you shouldent be leaving your hand staight but hook like in the start of your form around your opponets arm so you can easly redirect it without them getting away of the hook. You also hook with tan and fok sao...someone punches at you and you tan with your left hand now the left side of your hand where your thumb is is hooking the arm and brining it back with the force and redirecting that would be ying yang way double yang you would just drill into someone with the tan and the punch all at once. Now from that tan you can also go in to fok and the fok is just a flipped tan now the palm is downwards again hooking with the same part of your hand around your thumb towards the right, thats why we have the tan fok exrecsie. Yes i heard of nhb but they dont use boxing gloves sorry besides there is guys in nhb who do wc and kick ass but people say wc sucks anyway. So nhb means nothing to them what would it mean to me? wc proved it self there.
its funny your like the 3rd person that i owned on this forum that have no come backs because they know im right and then they just give up and make up some bs excuses that im wrong just cuz im younger or something
I see XT18 is still continuing his party of one.... trying to convince whoever will listen that he actually managed to 'own' someone. People resort to flaming you because you generally are not able to respond in kind when someone has gone out of their way to clearly address your points. Being lazy is an excuse. Only an excuse. You have real trouble responding in a rational, well thought out manner. You just seem to charge in with trumped up ideas of 'ownage' or that you're being taken to task because of your age... when in reality you're generally haven't come to the table with anything more than puffing up your chest. But for pure comedy gold... here's the highlight! What a load of crap. Spoken like someone who's never put on a pair of boxing gloves. Maybe never even been in the same room as a pair. Get clued up: 1) Not all boxing gloves are the same size eg. 8oz, 12oz, 14oz, 16oz gloves. 2) Even among the different glove makers weights there is a variance in size 3) You can easily verify this on the web... just go to any sight selling gloves and review the different weights being sold. 4) You have clue what you're talking about if you think you can't get hit in the throat with an 8oz. glove. Part of the reason for keeping the chin down in boxing beside protecting the chin is to protect the throat/trachea. If you still don't believe me... let your mate put on a pair of 8oz gloves and hit you in the throat. Let's see how long you remain standing and for that matter breathing. 5) I suggest since you apparently have rock solid knowledge about getting hit with a boxing glove (from where God only knows) you head down to your local boxing gym and let their amature boxers hit you in the solar plexus. Heck while your at it let someone in your own weight class hit you clean in the solar plexus with a boxing glove. Have fun standing on your feet for the short time you'll be there. Seriously... the punch to the solar plexus can be a KO punch... even with a glove on. So try to actually come to the table with some knowledge instead of just hot air and misinformation. 6) There are enough MMA style gloves out there that let any WC practitioner deflect strikes and redirect stuff that come his way. Whether or not he actually can pull of those moves as taught against someone intent on hurting him is entirely a different issue. Dude... if you expect anyone to take you even the slightest bit seriously... try to think through what you post. When you charge in posting misinformation and stuff that is just flat out wrong... the only person you own is yourself.
There is only bout 3 people that have flamed me and your one of them besides im not the one that gets banned. I dont know much about the sizes of boxing gloves i my self do have boxing gloves their not the biggest out there but big enough to make wc strikes hard to pull off. We both know wc realies on fast direct strikes with minumum wasted movent thats why wc guys make small moves that one inch power. With gloves its impossible to go fast in wc like without gloves + since the gloves go over and cover your whole hand you end up banigin one glove againts another when practising fast and you limit your hand as a weapon. 8oz even your smallest boxing gloves are 2 big(by the looks of image never saw them in real life) i can accept ufc gloves fine as their not as big and you have a free hand to do more damage(you can use knuckles,wrist, hand sides and palms to strike. When i train with boxing gloves with a partner i cant do my stuff as intended like i said before hands hittin each other since wc guys keep them close and make quick close hand to hand strikes which the gloves make hard because of their size. You might think their small enough i dont and the reason i dont give up on this is because i experminted with gloves and i saw how it worked out. Sure you can cause major damage to solar plex with a boxing glove but how many boxers do you see go down because they get hit in the chest? not too many besides you need alot mroe power in your punch to do that damage just because the gloves screw them. Hitting people in the throat might be possible but on a complete fool....its very easy to block peoples punches when they got boxing gloves vs someone who dosent and since they make the hand bigger and easier to aim to block or deflect and if your arms are close to each other the punch wont even get past your arms since the glove is too big to fit in between my arms. my knowlege of getting hit by boxing gloves is through the ones i got that my dad got me to box around with him i been hit with them and i been hit without gloves and there is a huge differance. But slip you think that your correct on this what is your tranning in wc? how long have you been tranning it and tryed using it with gloves? and if you have how did you get all those different strikes, deflections and transitions to work with gloves on? did you feel like your are limiting your self since you cant pull off most of the moves?
Total BS! 8oz gloves should be fine, even better would be MMA gloves as they would allow you to do pretty much any WC technique. Edit: You can also get boxing mitts which are kind of a cross between boxing gloves and MMA gloves... /edit A far better argument to make is that many Wing Chun strikes which I think are useful such as an open hand strike to the neck/throat cannot be trained with contact or complete resistance, nevertheless it doesn't mean the initial techniques and positioning with lead to the throat strike cannot be trained with resistance. It also doesn't mean other techniques cannot be trained against a non-compliant opponent. Many of the basic WC techniques (e.g. pak, lap, tan, etc) are pretty useful, even against a resisting opponent, the problem is that they're rarely trained with resistance. This means that if and when you do spar or god forbid fight, you'll resort to what humans will naturally do, a poor mans (kick)boxing... poor punches, haymakers and crappling and if this is what you're going to end up doing why not take up something else... chess perhaps? Get one of the little'uns to do it! Here's a solar plexus KO: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3EAiDmK8s8"]Nazee VS Nornglom @ Bangla 2007 - YouTube[/ame] And let's not forget Ricky Hatton's body shots! If someone can deliver a body shot THAT hard *with gloves* in training or in a bout, just think that can happen to the poor mugger!
That's because I'm sure the vast majority don't bother responding the half of the misinformed stuff you post. I think if you check your facts... you'd know I clearly wasn't banned for flaming you. All in all... that's really pretty weak. You'd have done better to qualify for your previous statements to the effect that you really didn't have much experience with boxing gloves. I think if you all of a sudden your punches become ineffective simply by a bit of glove material in the way... then I'd seriously wonder about just how effective that sort of punching truly is. I mean seriously... that's a rather fine tolerance being placed on a punch in order for it to be effective. Hmm... 8oz gloves are used the world over by nak muays and boxers... they seem to no problem knocking people out with them. Not with uppercuts, hooks or straight punches. Not with backfists or bolo punches. Again... I think it really calls into question the effectiveness of a punch that all of a sudden is rendered ineffective because of an 8oz glove. I don't even think most other WC practitioners would agree with you that the punch becomes ineffective because of an 8oz glove. There's a simply way to test this out for yourself though... other than guessing by looking at pictures of 8oz gloves on the web... simply put on a pair and try it out. Pretty much all of which can be done with and 8oz glove. Many of those areas end being used in striking for Muay Thai. It hasn't somehow rendered their punches ineffective because of the glove. In fact... if you watch much Muay Thai... far from it... there are a plethora of KO's/ Not really sure what to tell you other than I suspect you're using the wrong job for the tool. From the sounds of it... you're not using an 8oz glove. But rather a 16oz boxing glove. Obviously that's not going to work. Again... you really are just highlighting your inexperience here. I'm not harping on the point.. but you're trying to come off is you know what you're talking about when you clearly don't. Punches to the solar plexus are devastating when they land. They're harder to land primarily because it's easier to do defend with a forearm or an elbow or covering up. So of course you're not going to see nearly as many show stopping shots to the solar plexus as you will people head hunting. Your assertion that 'gloves screw them' is also silly. The solar plexus shot is a shot that has to be bang on in order to work. Glove or no glove. That the glove is bigger than the fist and allows you to cover slightly more area might even improve your chances of a shot to the solar plexus stopping someone in their tracks. Upper cuts the to the solar plexus are real gems. They will stop just about anyone. Glove or no glove if properly landed... are a shot that will crumple most people. Again you have to take into consideration that the solar plexus is easier to defend that than the chin or the jaw is. Hitting people in the throat might be possible but on a complete fool....its very easy to block peoples punches when they got boxing gloves vs someone who dosent and since they make the hand bigger and easier to aim to block or deflect and if your arms are close to each other the punch wont even get past your arms since the glove is too big to fit in between my arms. my knowlege of getting hit by boxing gloves is through the ones i got that my dad got me to box around with him i been hit with them and i been hit without gloves and there is a huge differance. Hmm... one doesn't have to train in WC to point out where you're clearly in the wrong with your information on boxing punches and boxing gloves. Heck... there are even other WC practitioners on this board that train with bag gloves with no real problems. Again I would wonder if you ever stopped to consider the issues with a punch being rendered ineffective (by your own admission) simply by adding an 8oz. glove or a bag glove. I would be curious what else in that system starts to break down once basic safety gear that allows you to spar heavy and full contact is added. It fast begins to sound like the excuses of uber deadliness that so many arts have... 'we can't spar because our moves are too deadly'... yet not surprisingly... all those deadly moves are rendered ineffective by an 8oz or smaller glove. Addendum: To that point I guess WC isn't effective for a number of months out of the year. Seeing as how in many places it gets ass cold and people generally step out of doors wearing gloves or mittens. Christ I'd hate to train in an art that vaporized into uselessness because I didn't want to freeze my fingers off in the winter.
Ah classic shot! I'd not seen that one before. There's always a few second pause with that shot. It's almost as the information takes a few seconds to makes it way through the central nervous system before it reaches the brain... and then when it does... the body just crumples. Game over. * just realized that this thread was a Judo/WC thread in the Judo forum and it's become a boxing/MT/WC thread.
Maybe the reason for some of the critical remarks about your posts reflect using Boxing gloves (of any variety) for an excuse by claiming they inhibit your ability to use favored technique. Does'nt that sound like a person suggesting thier methods are too deadly for demonstrating what a stlye is capable of doing? Seriously this is an excuse and one that has probably been read here on MAP numerous times. The open-style Kenpo gloves if nothing else bury that line of thinking. Besides the effective technique which can't be shown because it's limit by gloves or is too deadly has been disproven so much it's suprising any efforts to suggest that would still be used now. The inclination has occasionally hit me to call somebody on those kind of remarks. If the gloves are the problem those can be discarded. What about those dangerous techniques? That entirely depends on what the opponent will allow me to utilize during sparring. Would responding to a finger jab or knife hand with a party flex be acceptable there? Should the opprotunity present itself a nutcracker choke is just beautiful and I'd love the chance to use that. Now we are talking some technique with potential for harm. Much as I wanted to comment on the remarks about the other limitations of gloves (the loss of power in specific) it seems that Slip covered that far too well for me to add much new. Seriously jump in the ring and let somebody nail you a few times with gloves. The question of speed and power would be answered in short orded there.
You've never "owned" anybody. Us older and wiser folk have just been around long enough to recognize when someone thinks that their limited experience is the be-all, end-all, and quite frankly not worth our time. Hell, I'd take KickinIt over you, and I'm a little convinced he was clinically delusional. At least he was fun. On to the gloves thing. I've dropped people with body shots from those big, fluffy 14oz. gloves, and hit so hard I wanted to puke. When you actually understand how to generate power with your punches, the glove actually do little more than keep you from getting cut up. There's an awful lot of WCKF that you can still do with gloves, as in pretty much anything involving the forearm. Red old-school Everlasts are actually pretty flexible in the palm, which helps out with hooking & such. Actually, most of the newer models are curved inward by design, which makes hooking a little easier. Maybe Lap and Huen Sau's the only thing ya can't do with 'em, and I'm sure there's some people who can do that. You can still Bong, Pak, Tan, etc. with 'em. Maybe the fact that you can't pull off that stuff has more to do with your skill level than with the gloves. As an alternative, as Windtalker mentioned, there's the Kempo gloves. I prefer the 8oz. gloves used for MMA sparring and amature competition; they're basically the same open-palm design, just with more padding. But you're just making excuses if you think you can't use or adapt your WC to be used with gloves of some sort.
I can agree on gloves of ufc size being fine i dont know how many oz they are i dont see the problem in them my points are toward bigger gloves like you see in boxing matches on ppv or hbo those boxing gloves not some smaller ones that arent used in those fights. Boxer punches and wc punches are different im talking obvisly about wc with gloves punches not boxing with gloves punches. Sure i can use my punches, pak and maybe some forearm deflections but thats about it for my hands out of all the techniques in wing chun im limited to just couple. Also wc guys have their hands way out while boxers keep them way close we generate power short distances unlike boxers so our punches do end up weaker with gloves and thats a fact(boxing gloves like in hbo fights not ufc gloves). I have not generated a powerfull upclose punch with a glove i need to take my hand back more then usual to get the same power like without a glove. Wc punches are no where near the same as boxer punches we use different method of generating power our hands are already out infront of us alot we dont pull them back like boxers to punch, 3 inches to expand your arm is enough to generate a really powerfull blow in wc but what happens to that blow with gloves from 3 inches away? its still there sure but not as strong becomes more of a push since the gloves cusion it(you need more distance to generate the same power with boxing gloves in wc). Alot of wc realises on hands and hooking which is also impossible to pull off in a faster fight with gloves, again im talking about gloves that are bigger then the 8oz not sure what i got. No wc guys train wc with boxing gloves they put on ufc size gloves at most since they dont want to limit their art. Any system can put on gloves but will it be as effective as without? Wc also emphesizes alot on hand chops to throat and neck which is also really hard to do with a glove hands are alot smaller and easier to do more direct on contact too. We have alot of transactions from arm to arm laps also we do alot of grabbing with our hands so thats also taken out with gloves. Sure wc is possible with gloves any art is possible but they become limited in what they can do all im saying if people want to find out what art is better then any other they should fight no gloves no rules no art becomes limited. Also i dont live in no ilusion of fighting i know how fights go you obvisly arent standing there deflecting all the punches more like deflect punch at same time then another 5/6 punches after and next moves are decided but how your opponet reacts and where you can hit(always attacking). In boxing all you do is punch and cover up with the gloves do you really think that is the only way? deflections work but obvisly you cant just deflect the punch and wait for the next to come to deflect this aint no chi sao im talkin about real fighting. Always on attack even when they punch you try to deflect and keep attacking never stop fast powerfull strieks give you huge advantage in fights(maybe not ufc fights where everyone is trainned to top condition but street fights they do).
No, in boxing you punch and get out of the way. Why does everyone assume that boxing is about standing toe to toe? One of the key rules of boxing is to stay in constant movement, either with your footwork or with upper-body evasions. Even during a punching combination, your head should never be in the same place for any punch. This is one of the biggest philosophical differences between Wing Chun and boxing: the former seeks the bridge and tries to make contact with the opponent, the latter ideally will have no contact save for the fists. It's sad that so many people underestimate boxing. Just because people are hitting each other with their fists doesn't make it "boxing", 'cause without the science, it's just plain "hitting". Alright, rant over. Oh, and a brief grammar lesson: we use commas to separate ideas. For example, in your sentence, it would look like this: "In boxing all you do is punch and cover up with the gloves, do you really think that is the only way?" I'm also a big fan of semicolons. And it's also OK to break up your run-on sentences with periods.
