Using Judo on Wing Chun-ists?

Discussion in 'Judo' started by Panzerhaust, Jan 20, 2008.

  1. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    Don't try strictly to grapple him; set it up with strikes. Get his attention with a few feints or jabs to the face, then shoot in (and I mean shoot) for a single- or double-leg. Use the single if you're in unmatched leads, the double if you're matched.

    General rule of thumb: always circle to the outside of his lead foot, as if you were trying to get behind him. Makes it harder for him to use his rear weapons, and who knows, you might actually manage to take his back.

    If he's not wearing a gi or similar article of clothing you're going to need to modify your throws for use without a gi. Basically you're going to have to use collar-and-elbow ties, over-under, double-under, and whizzer/overhook clinches to get the throws you're looking for.

    This also means you're going to have to clinch with him. In the words of Jens Pulver (MMA fighter), "Bite down on your mouthpiece and wade in".

    Probably the best way to get into range is to work off his jab. Draw his jab then slip under it for a bodylock or clinch. Or, parry or block it, then use your defending hand to follow his hand as he retracts it, while closing the distance with footwork.

    You might also be able to off-ballance him or even take him down by sweeping his foot to the inside without clinching him. Basically a hands-free deashi harai: use your footwork to get him to advance, and before he can put all his weight on his lead leg, kick/sweep it towards his center.

    Above all, keep your guard up and keep your eyes on your opponent. It's easier to stop punches when you can see them coming.

    Wing Chun is genrally a close-ranged system. I would have thought that you could just wait 'til he tried to close the distance, then pre-emptively moved in and clinched with him.
  2. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    This thread is made of failure

    Anyway, serious response is, you obviously suck at clinching let alone clinchwork, so learn to shoot and double leg.
  3. Gong_Sau_Rick

    Gong_Sau_Rick ultimate WSL nutrider

    Yeah, something smells a little fishy.

    Again using WC's 95% rule. 95% of WC sucks really badly, so much so that you'd be more skilled if you trained in nothing. So by sheer statistics there are really only two possibilities here.

    1. The OP is not yet got basic proficiency in Judo, or is naturally not a great fighter.
    2. The OP's friend actually does quality WC which in that case nothing is going to work except an unexpected shoot.

    With regards to clinching, ask him what 'bong sao' means, if he says it means something like "wing arm" then clinching with him should be a cakewalk. But, if he says something like 'bong sao' refers to the bone in the upper arm, then don't try to clinch with him just go for shoots and stay out of range and strike.

    Also if his body weight is coming forward when he moves forward and his back heel comes off the ground a lot and his heels are not inline. This is a sign you can take out his legs. Another sign might be that if you push him backwards violently and he sort of stumbles around instead of regaining his balance in one step (you'll hear a loud thud on the ground from his back foot and he'll throw a punch at you that 9/10 is in range).

    When you're "sparring" what sort of stance does he start in. If he starts in no stance, just stands naturally or a WCish square stance that's a bad sign (for you). If he starts with one leg far in front and one hand out in front (in a sort of spear hand shape usually) you've got a nice leg out there all on its own to attack and an arm to grab.

    Really there are a lot of other variables, but like I said before I'm surprised that you would be having trouble due to the 95% rule.

    Alright, have fun kids.
  4. Panzerhaust

    Panzerhaust Banned Banned

    He stars in a forward Wing Chun stance, ie weight on the back foot on the heel, both toes pointing off at 45 degrees in the same direction. The only problem with going for the leg is that there's no weight on it so he just snap kicks me in the leg, stomach, or knee me while moving backward.

    The weight doesn't lift and the heel doesn't lift when he moves, every time I get close he just redirects me and hits me in the face. Guess I'll just have to keep

    The problem is that there is no jab so there is no retraction, as soon as the one hand retracts the other is there smashing in the faceguard on my headgear. Maybe circling around to the side of the retreating hand and shooting for the legs would be the best bet in a modification of your suggestion, maybe move in with a tan-sao jump-sao combo and then drop for underhooks under his arms and push upward for a clinch or double legs. The clinch while a good idea was also a failure, I couldn't get my hands close enough to his head for a MT style clinch and the one time I got close enough to his body for a lower style clinch he just redirected me and hit me in the face.

    Oh well I guess it'll come with training, thanks for all your help guys.
  5. Gong_Sau_Rick

    Gong_Sau_Rick ultimate WSL nutrider

    Well he's not going to be very mobile starting in a stance that is designed for chasing someone in trapping range so flank him.

    If he moves directly backwards, just take the kick (with whatever defense you know) and run over him. If you can't move forward faster than he can move backwards then you probably need to go to the gym.

    I'm not greatly familiar with BJJ or grappling but even if he has no weight on that leg it shouldn't be a problem (since his leg is still attached to his centre of mass) and all the weights going to be on the other leg (yay!).

    Also by attack I meant anything, thai roundhouse his front leg.

    What the hell is a jump sao?
  6. Panzerhaust

    Panzerhaust Banned Banned

    Ok that sounds like a good idea, I shall try and see.

    Well hahaha aren't we the comedian :D. But yeah I'll try moving to the side and parrying the leg for a catch or just as a setup for a sweep or other takedown.

    Ok well I guess as long as I can defend my head after rushing under the punches and parrying the kick I will probably be in a better range to clinch

    Yeah, because of the lack of weight on it he just picks it up whenever I've seen our resident TKD practitioner kicks at his leg.

    Sorry I wasn't exactly sure on the spelling. The 2nd move in dan chi sao when you're starting with **** sao and the opponent does a palm thrust.

  7. Gong_Sau_Rick

    Gong_Sau_Rick ultimate WSL nutrider

    Are you talking about jaam/jum sau, where you sink your elbow. In that case... tan and jum combo hmmm... I have no idea exactly what you would be doing but.

    1. There are no (in my school) combos in WC, since combos presuppose a fighting situation, the whole point of reflexive fighting is that we let the combos make themselves.

    2. Just go to hit him. If something gets in the way, providing you've done enough chi sao, you'll unconsciously get through, control and terminate.
  8. Panzerhaust

    Panzerhaust Banned Banned

    Yes that is what I meant (but didn't know how to spell).

    You're right, using combos wit hthe presupposition of trying to attack and get a certain situation is a bad mentality to have. Excuse my brainfart.

    I'll do more chi sao and maybe just some more trial and error.

    Thanks Gong_Sao_Rick
  9. forever young

    forever young Valued Member

    STOP !!!!! this is the single worst thing you can do!!!! more chisau will NOT enable you to do anything effective with this guy (nor any other guy within a sparring/fighting context) and remember im saying this as a wing chun practitioner ;) simply put if you are engaging in chisau with a senior then chances are he is going to be much better at it and also you are then no longer sparring, you are now 'chisau'ing' which is a different animal altogether. just simply try and keep your chin tucked (below shoulder line) and with high and wide hands (think muay thai guard rather than boxers guard) then you might be able to draw/lead him down the middle and them either counter using parry/pak sau with overhands or parry/pak sau and vertical palm to the chin combined with some jong bo/flanking, if you get to outside then you can also think about clinching from here or even ducking for single leg.

    If you cannot draw him in try walking him down and if/when he tries to create space try and stick then move into clinch range and try and get an under over type grip, then simply trip/hook the foot (osoto style or inside reaps) unless you are sure of your grip i wouldnt recommend thigs like seio nage (altho if you get the grips drop seio works well - my brother caught me with one the other day thank christ it was done slowly....ish ;) )

    if he is kicking, well i dont know how much conditioning you have done but basically keep the front knee bent and try and kick through his front leg to his rear leg and remember he is going to try and check kicks with his own kick so keep them low/calf area,

    if he is kicking from a close range then simply scoop and go for a high single or the like

    hope this helps
  10. Gong_Sau_Rick

    Gong_Sau_Rick ultimate WSL nutrider

    Oh I thought he was referring to his Wing Chun training separately. Now he's going to use WC+Judo to beat WC?

    But yes I don't know how good the guy he's fighting is, but if he's a halfway decent WCer (notice I didn't say average) he'll dominate the trapping range. Best to take him down or try to outfight him.
  11. Panzerhaust

    Panzerhaust Banned Banned

    Well basically I'm trying to get good at Wing Chun training at the school but for sparring I want to be able to actually figure out how use at least some of these techniques on the guys.

    I know some of them will be less effective but I figure I can also use my friend and the other students who will spar with me as training tools so that I can also apply throws on people who are good at preventing them and are good at striking.
  12. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    From reading Panzerhausts posts it actually reads like he is a WC practitioner more than a judoka.
  13. Panzerhaust

    Panzerhaust Banned Banned

    No I do Judo too, not competition Judo but I do practice and randori.

    I've done Judo longer than Wing Chun but I want to figure out how to grapple against it (Wing Chun) and use it to avoid having grappling used as much as possible so I can learn how to grapple good strikers and how to use Wing Chun to lock out grappling as much as possible.

    I wouldn't say I'm a single style martial artist though, so neither WC practitioner nor Judoka but at the same time both.

    As well as a couple other things I train in and other things I incorporate into my training as well.
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2008
  14. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    From reading your posts it sounds like you would do better to maybe focus on one style for a while go find a decent school and train hard.
  15. judobjj

    judobjj New Member

    This sounds like me and some of my old wing chun pals where we use to stand round talking BS and massaging our egos about techniques - nearly everyone goes through this but don't spend long there. Then one night rather than standing around talking we decided to test our blocking systems, traps, etc, out by putting on some boxing gloves. Despite having no boxing game, I punched this Wing-Chun blackbelt so many times, I had to stop - i received the same belting as well from him when he donned the gloves. it just doesn't work in a fight, only when people start basically playing around in an un-alive manner.

    You need to go and train BJJ and Judo, or any other alive art that works (Sombo, wrestling, Boxing, Thaiboxing, etc) in as good a school as you can find and you wing chun pals will not be able to hold a candle to you.
  16. cluebird

    cluebird For various reasons --

    Your post makes a lot of sense, _ing __un just isn't really the most proven style. However, the reason for this may be the boxing gloves themselves. This also applies to MMA and grappling gloves. From what I know by talking with a fellow who did Wing Chun for a while, a lot of the techniques learnt do not apply so well when you have gloves on. I'm not sure if this is true or just a BS excuse for crappy martial art, but I leave that for you to decide.

    As for the original post, you as a judo man should feel confident in your takedown ability. It seems like you may be too fearful of getting hit, but no matter what it's going to happen as you come in for a throw. Throw with a "large technique", like harai goshi, then follow through and land on the bugger. From there pin him maybe in tate shiho gatame, and finish him off with an ezekiel choke.
  17. Slindsay

    Slindsay All violence is necessary

    The wonderfully descriptive "I tried getting really close and doing a leg sweep/hook BJJ style" Does sort of clue you on a little bit to that.
  18. judobjj

    judobjj New Member

    You are right -Crappy martial art - if the blocks don't work against big boxing gloves then they sure aren't going to work with small fists or MMA gloves.

    To think I wasted years doing that rubbish when I could have trained something decent :(
  19. XT18

    XT18 Banned Banned

    Well it all depends on this crappy martial art i mean how will someone for example do a fok sao or tan or bong with a freaking boxing glove and expect it to work when the hand is suppose to be hooking the other persons hands/forearms and rederecting it while gloves block your whole hand so you cant do that anymore. You are limiting someones martial art thats not designed with gloves unlike boxing which is designed with gloves in mind. Thats like putting a bjj guy vs boxer in boxing ring with no grappling you are limiting someones martial art to show yours is superior.
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2008
  20. forever young

    forever young Valued Member

    weak my friend, real weak!!!
    trust me ive been doing wing chun long enough to know it works just fine in boxing gloves! the only thing you cant do is chi sau with gloves but then if you have gloves on why the hell would you be trying to chi sau??

    at the end of the day if you are doing wing chun properly you should realistically be hitting and thats about the size of it :) if you are worried about fo0k sau shapes (which is exactly the same glove on or off) then i would question the level of contact you are using.

    edit :just to clarify further, you should be directing all intent, through the hips to elbows. you can literally imagine you have had your hands cut off at the wrists. ELBOWS/HIPS are the key components of wing chun and gloves dont affect them :D
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2008

Share This Page