Using Judo on Wing Chun-ists?

Discussion in 'Judo' started by Panzerhaust, Jan 20, 2008.

  1. Panzerhaust

    Panzerhaust Banned Banned

    Ok, so I've recently started doing some Wing Chun, I've gone to two or three classes so far. After one of the classes I asked my friend who has been learning Wing Chun since he was little to do some sparring with me.

    Now herein comes the issue, even though I work out all the time, can box fairly well and have ok kicking ability, have done a little BJJ, some Judo, and still keep up with my randori with a friend I could not grapple him.

    I tried doing some hip throws, a few Judo throws using the arm, leg sweep, double legs, but no matter what I tried it wouldn't work.

    With the arm throws he locked me out, with the hips throws he just hit me in the face, I tried getting really close and doing a leg sweep/hook BJJ style but even that failed. I tried going for double legs and got my head kicked, knee-ed, punched, thank god for protective gear and gloves.

    Anyways does anyone have any grappling techniques that they have tried or even that they think would be most effective against Wing Chun in particular?

    Much appreciated.
  2. Gong_Sau_Rick

    Gong_Sau_Rick ultimate WSL nutrider

    1. What do you mean by sparring? (serious question, not being a smart ass)

    2. What system of WC are you and your friend doing? (e.g. WingTsun, Ip Chun/Ching, TWC, applied WC, WSL method etc...)
  3. Panzerhaust

    Panzerhaust Banned Banned

    What I mean by sparring is headgear with face cages, 6oz MMA gloves, only rules were no striking back of the head, spine, and groin, everything else was fair, grappling, striking, w/e.

    I don't know exactly what the lineage is, all I know is I got owned Wing Chun style and that I could find no way to use wither Judo or BJJ style takedowns to get him on the ground where I probably would have had a better chance or striking or submitting.
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2008
  4. Gong_Sau_Rick

    Gong_Sau_Rick ultimate WSL nutrider

    Ok, and my second question.
  5. Panzerhaust

    Panzerhaust Banned Banned

    answered in my edit
  6. Gong_Sau_Rick

    Gong_Sau_Rick ultimate WSL nutrider

    Ok, if I don't know what system of WC he does I can't advise on various strengths and weaknesses. Saying you got owned WC style is like saying you got owned Karate style. Just like there's different styles of Karate with different strengths and overall strength there are different styles of WC. What will work on a Goju guy, might not work on say a Kyokushin guy.

    Having said that, in general any takedown that avoids the trapping range is preferable, I think BJJ is meant to be like that. But then again some (most :( ) WC is hopeless in the trapping range (i.e. can't generate ground-core power) and have weak stance work which makes them suceptible to sweeps, throws... you know more Judo-like stuff.

    So, I'm your inside man but I need more info.
  7. Panzerhaust

    Panzerhaust Banned Banned

    Oh I know it just sounded ominous so I figured I'd throw it in. I'm not sure what

    Basically whenever I would get close he would redirect me away from him and the one time I timed my movement right and got in under his punches to do a double leg takedown he brought a knee stright up to my face.

    I will try and find out what lineage it is for you.
  8. forever young

    forever young Valued Member

    well we already established you are crap at grappling in the other thread of yours in the bjj section so my advice to you is dont try and grapple because you obviously cant!!!!
    just try and punch him and you will have better luck ill wager ;)
  9. Panzerhaust

    Panzerhaust Banned Banned

    Of course because my abilities at grappling have been thoroughly tested in a forum :rolleyes:, just like you can compare swordplay with feather dusters.

    I am asking for a technical asessment of what techniques people feel work best against Wing Chun or a similar system which locks people out as such.

    uh yeah that kind of worked even more badly than grappling considering Wing Chun is meant for striking. I figured the BJJ style newaza, or even the Judo style newaza would work better because Wing Chun doesn't do groundwork, but I couldn't get close enough to preform a takedown or throw and the few times I did he locked me out, oh and kneed me in the facemask.
    And GOD bless protective gear!

    And even though my newaza isn't the most spectacular my point was more that I need some technical help actually getting him to the ground because of the ability to lock out the throws and takedowns.

    Last edited: Jan 20, 2008
  10. forever young

    forever young Valued Member

    then you truly do fail :)
    ok on that thread you are basically saying that grappling isnt effective/realistic enough yet in this one not only are you advocating grappling but asking how do 101 (close the gap effectively and safely then perform a takedown whereby you can presumably perform some 'grappling' on him)
    i advise that if you want to learn how to grapple effectively then take some more classes from that bjj 'sensei' of yours while at the same time continuing to learn how to close range strike with your wing chun classes.
    there is no short answer i have spent years training 3x per week in wing chun and now have a year of bjj at 3 x per week, i still cant out grapple those higher than me and neither can i out strike my seniors within wing chun so simple answer is if hes better than you you will have a hard time doing any effective work especially if his weaknesses (in wing chun its grappling) outweigh your strengths (according to you you do/did bjj and judo and seem to know at least some ninja stuff and possibly jjj) you have nothing to bring to him, if however on the other hand you can find a middle ground where neither has a clear advantage (perhaps a bit outside clinch/bridge range) and circle while throwing some LOW (below knee/calf muscle) kicks youn might even things up a little
  11. Panzerhaust

    Panzerhaust Banned Banned

    I wasn't saying that grappling wasn't realistic simply that grappling alone wasn't realistic and that it is bad to grapple with someone unless you make sure there are no pointy things on the ground, that buddy has no friends, and that he won't stick you with anythign pointy when you start to grapple with him. I think grappling is good but like everything else has a time and a place to be used which is often overlooked and made to seem like grappling should be your first defence against anyhting. At least that's what seems to be the general message.

    I wasn't expecting any techniques or anythign just a gentle nudge that might help technique wise with double legs for example, and not getting my face smashed in by a backward flying knee on the rare occasion that I do get inside.

    I figured that.

    Yeah I think maybe if I just keep working at the Wing Chun to get better at the striking part I may eventually find opportunities for takedowns and throws... I hope.

    Thanks for the words of wisdom though.
  12. narcsarge

    narcsarge Masticated Whey

    One thing not mentioned at all is that regardless of wether you are trying to grapple using Judo, BJJ, whatever, all takedowns have got to be set up. If your opponent from WC is used to seeing and defending alot of takedowns, I am not surprised that you took a beating. If you get enough straight jabs to you face, eventually you learn to move your head and counter a jab! Makes sense.

    Experienced fighters, reqardless of the Art, are used to seeing clues during a sparring session that tell them what their opponent is going to do. Really good fighters are able to use their own "tells" to set up their opponent. I love opponents who are just learning and haven't figured out their "tells".
  13. Lekta

    Lekta Super-Valued Power Member

    Obviously if you are getting kneed when going down for a double, you're doing it wrong. As with all the other throws, you won't get better at them if you're not actively studying them. There is no special technique or "nudge" that's going to let you get the edge in sparring and allow you to pull off takedowns more frequently. You will learn how to properly take someone down by practicing and learning how to take someone down, not by asking how to do it on an online forum! If you stop taking BJJ what do you expect? That your takedowns will be the same as they were when you used to study it? Don't ask us how about tips, they won't help you. Go take a BJJ/Judo class.

    Secret takedown tip!!!!!
    "Never miss practice." - Jigoro Kano
  14. EternalRage

    EternalRage Valued Member

    Wing Chun, from my experience in it, tended to rely on a lot of scientific principles that are sound in theory but hard to put into practice with the randomness that is characteristic of live sparring.

    Fakes, feints, mixing up footwork are probably good to put in with your takedowns. Wing Chun operates on a centerline theory - they guard everything on it and attack down the centerline, so if you are going in at a linear path, chances are you're going to catch some chain punches. Mix it up. i.e. step off to the side, throw a round kick to the legs, fake a jab high, go for the single.

    Don't get stuck in their combat range. They know you have grappling experience, and they're waiting to capitalize on that. If you're getting hit on your throws or takedowns, that means they're anticipating somewhat well and are already starting to readjust their distance when you shoot in/clinch/whatever.
  15. Panzerhaust

    Panzerhaust Banned Banned

    That does make a lot of sense and there are many other people at the school who have done other martial arts so they may sort of work collectively on using it against other styles.

    Yeah maybe I should work on that a little more in my free grapling sessions and see how I'm telegraphing. Also I think it's the fact that you have to move in close for these throws and because of the Wing Chun stance he can just lower his arm for something like jump-sao (I think that's the spelling) after my energy is already committed while he doesn't have to commit body weight to punch and always has a Wing Chun counter for my movement in.

    Well up yours!
    Just kidding thanks for the help narcsarge!

  16. Panzerhaust

    Panzerhaust Banned Banned

    Thanks I'll try some of that next time. Maybe if I use some tight hooks and elbows it'll be harder for them to defend. I never fight on line anyways, I always circle whenever possible. Maybe it would actually be easier to fight them long range to force them to move in and then to use that to shoot in faster. I guess I'll try again next time.
  17. CKava

    CKava Just one more thing... Supporter

    Solution to all your issues is to not just mess around with your mates and go to some respectable schools and train THEN mess around with your mates. The amount of BJJ 'knowledge' you supplied in the BJJ forum made even folks with just over a months experience realise you had no knowledge of BJJ. A ninjutsu practitioner popped in to say the same thing about your knowledge of Ninjutsu and from what I know of Judo practitioners you really don't seem to be reflecting their typical approach/views either.

    If you can't take down someone who has no experience of grappling then you seriously just need to practice more. I've done Wing Chun in the past and I think it can be decent when practiced right but few of the practitioners unless they are cross training have any grasp of grappling- so not being able to even score a takedown is a bad sign. If you can't get close at all then not only do you need to train your grappling but maybe practicing a striking style would be good! More practice seems to be the solution.
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2008
  18. narcsarge

    narcsarge Masticated Whey

    Now you're thinking! Don't look for ways to bash your head against the wall learn how to remove the wall from in front of you. This guy may also be superb at counters and really sucks if he has to initiate an attack. Easy to figure out though, stand out of range as someone else suggested and wait for their attack. Many grapplers I know just love it when I step in to attack. That is when I have found myself fighting gravity.
  19. vince89

    vince89 New Member

    Maybe youre just not very good/experienced at the things you train at, whereas you say your friend has been training Wing Chun since he was little. Sounds like you are a dabbler, taking a few classes of everything but never really committing and training hard to anything. Everything you mentioned, you didnt sound confident in your abilities, "im ok at kicking, decent at punching, did a bit of Judo and a little bit of BJJ".

    A few classes of Judo/BJJ is not going to make you a grappling master, but that doesnt mean the style is not effective. It just means youre not yet good at it. Keep up the training, get plenty of sparring and pretty soon you'll be able to whoop your friends ass :)
  20. Panzerhaust

    Panzerhaust Banned Banned

    It was more that I've done enough Judo (and will keep doing) that I can get most people on the ground, it's only that my newaza is below Judo or BJJ standards (which I'm still working on in Judo), although I figured since my friend has no grappling experience and I have some that once I got past his guard and got him on the ground we'd be more even there. Unfortunately I still don't know because I never got him there.

    and it's not so much that I've dabbled in various arts and never stuck, just that my friends in different arts and I show eachother techniques and try to figure out how to counter or avoid those situations.
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2008

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