Ice. One hydrogen molecule, one hyrdroxide molecule, bonded and frozen solid. The greatest thing in the world for cooling your strawberry daquiri, but is it really wise to use it on your injuries? Most people offer it up as an effective treatment modality, probably because they heard their Doctor or mother say it once upon a time and have the idea fixed in their head that its good. Fairly anecdotal, right?? Following is a basic discussion of why it is *not* good, and in fact can be relatively destructive to the healing process: PRO The singular pro to ice is that it is cold. This extreme cold can help reduce inflammation by contracting vessels, loose fluids, muscles and sinew, therefore reducing pain. This is the primary reason people use it. However, going this route comes at a cost... CON Like anything else thats cold, ice will bring the healing process of an injury to a halt. Tissues generally heal by the blood supply they have. Using ice will reduce the tissues blood supply. The ice will contract and harden the tissues, tendons, loose fluids, blood vessels and dispersion becomes much more difficult. Tendons dont glide properly, blood flow is blocked, and waste that should be removed cannot be flushed. I dont know how many customers Ive talked to who used ice 6 months ago and still have problems with swelling in the local area. CON The coldness and dampness of ice tends to penetrate the body and can cause arthritis later on down the road in joints. Ever wonder why you can tell what the weather is going to be like from that elbow you iced all those years back? Now you know... CON The coldness of ice causes contraction. This no mystery to anyone, cold makes things stiff and hard, and you notice this when you try to stretch outside on a cold day. When you ice an injury, you contract tendons and muscles that are probably already tight from injury, bringing the area even farther from normal uninhibited movement. You dont want to tighten things, you want to loosen them, relax them... CON Since it is a bit more controllable, ice, if used for too long can destroy tissue cells. So, what now? What should one use instead of ice, on fresh painful injuries? What we would like is something that has the pro of ice without the cons; something that also increases local circulation to help flush out waste, thereby releiving pain and inflammation; something that spurs the healing of tissues without being too warming as to irritate the inflammation. Turns out there are quite a few things, all of which are easy to get and inexpensive: - A cooling bruise/injury dit da jow. For those who arent sure about jow, there are people on this forum who were quite skeptical who Ive sent free bottles to and they have since spoken up about the effectiveness of this option. - San Huang San. San Huang San is composed of 3 herbs (although there are variations with more) that are cooling to reduce pain and inflammation but also increase local circulation to drive out waste and spur the healing process. I have a customer whos husband used ice for months with no relief on a broken foot. I sent her a bag of San Huang San. She told me the very next day of use that it was the first time in months that she had seen the bones on the top of her husbands foot. - Massage: Sometimes painful at first, massage itself can often help to relieve pain and inflammation by physically breaking up wastes at the site of injury and helping to return a normal flow of circulation and movement. - I dont use this one but, if yorue brave, a simple pin ***** (bleeding) at the site of the injury can release a drop or 2 of blood. This can have a pretty significant effect on the pressure built up in the injury. - And lastly, if you absolutely must use ice, then dont use it for more than 5-10 minutes in an hour. This will give you some inflammation reduction and will somewhat reduce the adverse side-effects that ice has.
Correct. This is the whole point of the ice. While I agree that ice does cause this, I don't think that it would be on any real problematic scale unless there was a LOT of icing going on. Anyone icing at that level obviously does not know what they are doing. Care to provide proof? A study, perhaps? Good point. But, then, you shouldn't be icing for long periods of time. As long as you don't do that, there won't be problems. Once again, people icing too long because they don't know what they are doing. Think about it. If dit da jow REALLY worked, EVERYONE would use it. High-level athletes need the best injury rehabilitation they can get, and they don't use dit da jow. They use ice. While dit da jow might have some effect, I think ice would be a better route.
I'm not convinced unless you can provide medical studies/journals that back up what you are saying. If ice is so bad, why does it work for numerous people the world over? The article below seems pretty well rounded but the overall quote is: http://www.physioroom.com/research/reviews/200401_review_ice.php Also http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=522152 Are there no online links you can reference to?
Cold is cold. The point is that ice is going in the wrong direction. There are things out there that reduce inflammation without the cons of ice...Why use ice when there are better treatments that arent adverse? Yes, Ill cite a few. But Ill tell ya what: Every now and then I stop by and get involved in discussion. Without providing studies of their own, people like to ask for studies. Ive been more than happy to offer this though, and have cited maybe 100 studies in various posts and topics over the last couple years. I find it convenient, and almost funny, that probably on every single occasion Ive done this, the studies have just been glossed over and discussion continues as if they didnt even exist. I could cite studies all my life but Im getting tired of it. Search through my post history....Ive cited tons of studies and nobody pays attention. So Ill cite a few, but then Im done, as its really not fun for me to search through texts for citations and such... =\ Keep in mind that the connection between weather and aching is controversial. I dont necessarily support that specific thing, I said that in jest and didnt really mean for it to be taken too seriously. Nevertheless, these citations would be good reads and are on the topic at hand: Chag, W-Y, et al. "The Effects of Traditional Arthritic Herbal Medicines on Immune Response Cells". The Journal of Rheumatology 1997; 24:3 Zhong Cao Yao Tong Xun (Jounral of Chinese Herbal Medicine), 1979; 11:40 HelongJiang Chinese Herbal Medicine and Herbology, 1991; (1):27 Traditional Chinese Medicine and Medicinals or Inner Magnolia, 1986; (3):7 Studies done on the 3 herbs used in San Huang San: A Handbook of the Composition and Pharmacology of Common Chinese Drugs. 1994; 226:323 Chem Pharm Bull; 1984; 32(7):2724 Chinese Journal of Medicine, 1956; 42(10:964 Journal of Medicinals, 1981, 101(10):883 Like I said above, ice is going in the wrong direction. Its counter-productive for the healing process--From the second the injury begins to cool from the ice (covered in cloth or whatever), the waste begins to congeal, the tendons begin to stiffen, and the circulation begins to drop. I think youd be pleasantly surprised if you gave something like San Huang San a diligent and fair try... Thats a falacy. The biggest problem is *awareness*, jow is not very well known at all. Most people are skeptical but once they try it they will break your doors down for the stuff--There are some people here who can vouch for before and after results. As further case in point, I cater to a handful of high-level athletes, including professional MMA fighters, physical therapists, and chiropractors. My mother is a professional RN, and her and her entire staff at the hospital bother me constantly about sending them some more for personal and office use. Its not that high-level athletes, etc choose not to use it...Its that they dont even really know its an option. This is perpetuated by the fact that some people who know it exists arent even willing to give it a chance... Im not a big fan of bleeding either, but its not because the injury needs the blood that is in there. That is hemorhhaged blood which causes pressure and pain. It doesnt do any good jstu sitting there, the blood supply from circulating blood with fresh oxygen is what is helpful. The waste in an injury needs to be flushed out--but I prefer to let the body do it naturally and dont partake in poking either. As for massaging being aggrivating, it really depends on the injury. Massage for basic bruising is great...massage for fracture or torn tendon, etc is definitely a no-no... Ive said my peice. Someone from another thread asked me to write this and I was happy to oblige. Im not really interested in arguing about it, Ive presented some info for everyones consideration. Regardless how or what the reader does with their training and body, hopefully everyone can get something out of this thread!
Interesting stuff. I am one of those people who have been converted somewhat to using dit da jow. Plumdragon sent me some as I was rather skeptical about it on a couple of threads, but it has worked very well for me. I get a lot of impact injuries from playing football and the jow he sent me heals them up a treat. Obviously this is anecdotal, but it has actually made a big difference in healing time compared to what it normally is.
The most common scientifically attributed cause of joint pain associated with weather change is barometric pressure. There have been several studies done that link changes in barometric pressure with increased joint pain as the nerve endings in joints are very pressure sensitive- especially when dealing with rhumatoid arthritis. And purely anectodally, I have very sensitive ears and every time the barometer starts to move, I tend to develope some pain in my knees, feet or hands. There are no major cons to ice when used properly. If used improperly, like all treatments including dit da jow, there are negative effects.
If those trials are double blind and randomised, then I'll give it some consideration. Otherwise I wouldn't waste my time.
I have had several broken bones from childhood that give me trouble on cold/ rainy days. Last year my Sifu exposed me to Jow. I hooked with Plum and got some herb packs from him. I have seen bruises go from sparring, conditioning, and a hammer go away in two - three days. My wife had knee pains from running I put a ligament jow on it and guess what? Her pain went away. Maybe you shouldn't knock Jow until it hasn't worked for you. By the way every single person I have given some to has had success.
A zombie thread!!! Sometimes I use jiao with pretty good results but I am not always convinced it is not just the coolness of the jiao rather than specifically the herbs involved that make it work. Just for your interest (and to keep things simple so not too many zombies go walkies...) http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=34053860&postcount=4 FWIW LFD
