Using a giant vase of water for push hands?

Discussion in 'Tai chi' started by Goderan, Oct 13, 2011.

  1. Goderan

    Goderan New Member

    I don't have enough money to go into an actual Tai-Chi school that studies push-hands. :cry: So I was thinking, would there be an alternative for it other than using another person? I recently got done reading The Tao of Tai Chi Chuan, and from what I've read, it is recommended that you push hands with a verity of people, small, large, whatever size. I assume just to get your flow and sensing of their energy. I saw a part in Tai Chi Master with Jet Li in it who found a breakthrough upon Tai Chi after he pushed a ball into a giant vase full of water which brought me to an breakthrough myself. I was thinking, since a normal human is muscle, flesh, and bones, filled with water. Would I have the same luck doing push hands against a ball in a giant vase of water? I just wanted to get your thoughts on the matter.
     
  2. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    Tai Chi Master/Twin Warriors is an epic movie! ;)

    But, unfortunately I do not believe you will be able to achieve anything by pushing a ball under the surface of the water, and here's why:

    Tui Shou (pushing hands) is used to listen to, interpret, lead and neutralise an opponents force. From a ball in water, you would not be able to practice this, as the ball has no Yi, or intention. It is just doing what physics says it will do; IE, the water pressure will push it back to the surface of the water.
    As an opponents force can come from multiple vectors, again, a ball in water will not be able to recreate this.

    I think, the idea that the movie was trying to get across was the idea of yielding to an opponents force, and then paying it back. Jet Li pushes the ball under the water, the water yields and absorbs the ball, but when Jet Li's strength is finished and he can't push the ball any further, the water shoots the ball back at him explosively. That is the Taijiquan combat theory in it's most basic form.

    There are possible benefits that could be gained from such training. If you were to practice Zhan Zhuang in a pool of water (about waist deep), you could try and hold a ball under the surface of the water whilst trying to remain Song, and rooted. As the ball will be trying to resurface, this will have the effect of lifting you up. I've not tried this myself, but maybe...
    You might also be able to train Jin in this way, such as An Jin. I know a certain Taiji teacher who drills his Peng and Lu Jin through repeating the Ward Off - Roll Back movement in a swimming pool with broad boards attached to his fore-arms to offer him resistance in his movement.

    Where abouts are you located? Someone may know of someone in your local area who could help - maybe another student looking for someone to practice with or something...
     
  3. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Goderan,how much experience in T'ai Chi do you have? The question you've posted leads me to think that the things Dan Bien has mentioned are "over your head" at this time as far as being able to actually practice them correctly.(Don't slip in the pool,either!)

    DB,that's interesting water training-think you've been reading to many GoJu books lately!
     
  4. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    Hi El,
    Actually, I don't have any GoJu books - the only Karate based book I have is Shotokan. Is this method used in GoJu too?
     
  5. Goderan

    Goderan New Member

    Just finished reading The Tao of Tai-Chi Chuan by Jou, Tsung Hwa. I've read all except the push hands page since I confess that I haven't gotten that far since I'm still at the cycle of the human, but I was just figuring out a way to improvise when I do get to that part. But I have observed push hands training though. Some of the stories from the book have encouraged me to go about learning it myself through Zen since I have no money for any other teacher, and I currently reside in Milwaukee, WI.

    How you described Push Hands, Dan Bian, is exactly what my reasoning for the ball in a giant vase of water idea flourished from. I know that the extreme of yang creates the beginning of yin, and vise versa, similar to your idea on what Jet Li found out himself with the ball; thus making a whirl pool in the water and using his force to break the vase with the water. Which reminded me of someone using a sword to fight, since he didn't directly attack the vase but defeated it with the use of water. So from everything I saw him do with the ball in the vase of water, I thought up to get a giant vase, and do push hands with the ball in the water. True the ball has no intention, but we wouldn't either unless we put our energy behind what we want to do. Thus the ball technically has intention, caused by the water in the vase. I can push the ball to start it up, and just practice against the ball in different ways like keep it underwater and in the middle since I know the ball will stray to the side during my time. As an added bonus, I can hit two birds with one stone by practicing bagua since the big vase is round. I will keep the Peng and Lu Jin training in mind though, that is an excellent idea.
     
  6. Dan Bian

    Dan Bian Neither Dan, nor Brian

    What is the stage of the human? Surely, as you are a homosapien, the stage of the human should include Tuishou practice?
    I believe the book you are using is slightly outdated, and perhaps not as acurate, nor as based in reality, as would benefit you?
    The only 'stages' you need to worry about when practicing Taijiquan are the stages of understanding what you are doing, and these stages move forward with time and practice.

    How does one learn and practice Tuishou 'through zen'? :confused:

    Although a pretty cool training scene in an epic movie, it's just make-believe. That will not happen, no matter how good you are.

    Really, forget this idea. You can't practice Tuishou with a ball in a vase of water, and I'll tell you why in the following:

    Actually, you are mistaken here. Yi - Qi - Xing: that is the sequence. The intention stimulates the energy* which gives rise to the form**. If you don't have intention, then your energy will be scattered and your form will be weak.

    Unless you ball has a brain, this is not the case. The ball will simply behave according to the laws of physics. Since I'm rubbish at explaining stuff like that, I'll leave it to someone else to do. Suffice to say, that the ball will simply follow the path of least resistance back to the surface, because of it's bouyancy.

    What you are describing here is not Tuishou. It's bobbing a ball under water. While not too different from what commonly passes as Tuishou, it is still lightyears away from the real thing.

    I'm not sure I even want to know how you intend to practice Baguazhang in this manner... :rolleyes: I mean this with kindness - you need to find a teacher.

    *I use the term 'energy' in a non-mystical way, not meaning to imply any qi-blasting powers.
    **I use the term 'form' as 'shape' rather than as a series of linked movements.
     
  7. Goderan

    Goderan New Member

    Lol srry for the confusion about this. ^^; This "Stage of humanity" is one of three stages the book I read describes ways of understanding Tai-Chi Chuan actually; it's kinda like a belt system of modern dojo's except without the restrictions. With the rules of the human stage one must learn how to practice with Ching and Man to cultivate stillness. Along with Yuan and Yun. After the understandings of the human stage, Earth Stage consists of Lin, Sung, The Three Powers, and Changes. The Sky Stage is the last stage, in which one learns To Sense Emptiness and Solidity, Breathing, Consciousness, and Hsu-Jing.

    Zen is the path to enlightenment; the way of teaching and learning. I can see no better teacher than that. :p I agree with you that if you don't have intention, your energy will be scattered and your form will be weak, but I do ask you how is intention made in the first place? As far as everything else I said, I'm precieving my debate upon this concept only within the means of that which is Potential and Kinetic; for the sake of keeping it only as a debate. And with Bagua zhang, as far as I know, bagua practitioners concentrate on foot work so the hand is free to attack at any direction. How they practice is stepping in a circular motion; easily done with a round vase. Again, these are all potential idea's I've made up as an alternative just to see if it's durable or if not just to practice on until I find a better way of doing it. I find it contradicting for there to be any restrictions in Tai-Chi ever.
     
  8. Taiji_Lou

    Taiji_Lou Banned Banned

    OR, you could just do tai chi in a swimming pool with the seniors.
     
  9. Hatamoto

    Hatamoto Beardy Man Kenobi Supporter

    Dunno if this is worth mentioning, but a long time ago I was in an empty swimming pool, I stood about shoulder deep in the water and went through the Li short form, and found I got good feedback from the water resistance that let me know when I was using my arm more than my waist, when I was moving too fast it would push me off balance, when I used muscle rather than structure I'd find it obviously a lot harder to move.

    There's no profound lessons in there, but if you're looking for "something" that might give you a little more feedback, and you're not worried about explaining to the lifeguards wth you're doing, it's a reasonably entertaining way to assess yourself.
     
  10. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Equipment training can only "enhance" your combat skill after you have developed it. You still have to develop your combat skill against an opponent first. Your combat skill can be:

    - "developed" by 2 men drills.
    - "tested" by sparring/wrestling.
    - "enhanced" by equipment training.
    - "polished" by solo drills.

    Most people just take the wrong sequence and start solo drills (or even worse, the solo "form") first. IMO, that's not the right order of the TCMA training.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2012
  11. Taiji_Lou

    Taiji_Lou Banned Banned

    WRONG! You learn the form first to build up leg strength and stable footwork, and so you know the basic movements of TCC. Then you can do push hands and wrasslin around. Learning the form also gives the instructor ample time to assess your character.
     
  12. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Historically,one learned the form last .One learned the individual movements,linked combos,ph,apps,sparring,etc,and most importantly the nei gungs (which make things work) first before one learned the total linked sequence-which is simply used as a training method wherein one can practice all the solo practices combined in a long and varied manner-probably to keep boredom at bay. Starting with the form-meaning the long linked sequence- first and then going on to the other training methods is a modern (20th) century practice. No kiddin',Lou. You can look it up!

    Assesing character,if an instructor cared,can be done via observation of the individual in training in general.
     
  13. Taiji_Lou

    Taiji_Lou Banned Banned

    ......:confused:

    I've been corrected.

    That's how they SHOULD teach it! Nei gungs and meditation, then applications and their movements, then linking it into the form..... man this city needs a good tai chi school.
     
  14. Oddsbodskins

    Oddsbodskins Troll hunter 2nd Class

    Woah, duuuuuuuude, like, awesome 180 maaaaaan.
     
  15. Taiji_Lou

    Taiji_Lou Banned Banned

    ay, tis a wee bonny ting den, lad. dude, like, haggis. deep fryed mars bars. soccar. see? I speak scottish, too.
     
  16. Johnno

    Johnno Valued Member

    In a past life, TJL was Wee Jimmy Krankie.
     
  17. KarateTaichi

    KarateTaichi New Member

    I think a solo Tuishou is not Tuishou at all and many already explained the why but some complementary solo exercises may support your skills enhancing balance, flexibility and probably the ability to issue explosive force.
     
  18. embra

    embra Valued Member

    Yir learning Lou, but one wee correction :- its no' 'soccar' - its 'fitba'.

    However, yir spot on wi' the deep fried mars bar, like.

    http://www.rooftopcomedy.com/watch/InTheTraditionOfRobertBurns
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2012
  19. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Form was designed for "teaching" and "learning" only. It was not designed for "training". This thread is for "training" at home. All 24 moves, 36 moves, ... Taiji form are modern creation from the original 108 moves long form. After you have understood the application, you can link your Taiji form anyway that you like.

    When you are at home, you should train "drills, baby, drills ..." and not "forms, baby, forms ...". Repeating Shakespeare's play from the 1st word to the last word 10,00 times won't make you a play writer.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2012
  20. Taiji_Lou

    Taiji_Lou Banned Banned

    my little brother's name IS Ian, actually.

    Bah! Lovin' the trainspotting routine. That movie changed my life. First saw it at a drop in in San Fransisco. Made me wanna search public toilets looking for suppositories.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2012

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