Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by KempoFist, May 27, 2007.
HE WAS KNOCKED OUT! HIS HEAD WAS GETTING BOUNCED OFF THE FLOOR. Not a good stop?
I'd have to agree with you there. Much as I like Liddell, he was knocked out good and proper. No excuses.
Maybe you'd like to enlighten us on how that was not a fair stoppage
Was Liddell intelligently defending himself? No, he was laid out like a picnic
Was Liddell going to be able to intelligently defend himself? No, he was going to lay there eating more punches
What would've happened if McCarthy had let it go on? An unconscious Liddell would've taken a lot more damage and spent the weekend in the hospital, potentially longer
McCarthy's the best in the business and that stoppage was absolutely picture perfect. Liddell can be seen after the fight asking John Hackleman what happened - that's as good an indication you'll ever get that the stoppage was justified
I think I have mentioned what my thoughts are regarding this, from past experience I have learned when a Moderator and a poster have a difference of opinion, others will chime in an then it will go down hill even worse.
I know all the ramifications that you have laid out, the fact is I still think it was a premature stop. Not much else to say about it. It might be addressed by others later in their years and we might get to know what they think when they move on.
It is a point that is not needed to go over much other than, I believe when you are fighting for the Championship it should not have been stopped so quick...I believe the post interview makes it even clearer.
Like I said no blood, no indication that either had been in a fight. I can and so can you "monday morning quarterback" all we want but the fact is, it is history. The film and pictures show a valid reason to have stopped, Boxers get more of a chance to keep fighting. It was not as clear as I would like to see. This is not the Olympic Auditorium and they are not beginners.
They had a change of the guard and it came early in the 1'st round. Big John stopped it, I guess he felt it was the thing to do. Others feel it was right. I still see that the Ref was on the ground and stopping it and Liddell was moving very fast towards Jackson at that time. But for a millisecond he might have been out? It was up to the ref. and I think he could have let it go on if he chose to, now that would have been interesting.
Some of us have already chimed in before the moderator Gary.
Chuck on his back. Arms limp to the sides. Jackson playing basketball with his skull and bouncing his unconscious head off the canvas. BJ McCarthy makes a good stop so there can be a rematch and Chuck won't have to drink through a straw.
Well again your take, but I doubt that would have happened. But it does sound good. If you are saying it should have stopped.
I sure don't see what you are saying is what happened. More like movement of head by, other than strikes etc. Those were not good shots and if they were there would have been injuries. How many injuries did we see how much blood. Zip, nada, nothing to substantiate the stop in my humble opinion.
Two or three seconds would have been nice to see what would have transpired. It was a millisecond as I said before. That is a still (a few millisecond shot picture).
How many have had that done in the UFC how many have died from their injuries? Now lets compare that to the now padded to the hilt Boxers.
Plus, lets mention they get more of a chance to fight, than the UFC 71 gave the champion.
You sure you watched the same fight Gary?
I am beginning to wonder, I'll look at it again with your comments. LOL
I would say the demonstrated technique was a good example of the philosophy of showing someone a hundred techniques and let them pick a half dozen or so that they like and find practical.
Some people could pull the technique off, of course as mentioned already there would need to be application of getting off the line of attack and conducting the technique in a more alive context. Most IMHO, including myself would find that technique impractical application.
The only comment beyond the good comments already posted by others is that the takedown shown in the video is 9/10 times going to actually be an attempt at a joint break (elbow break) and not a takedown. The takedown can come AFTER the break but IMHO, the break should be taught as part of the original technique when we are talking intermediate or advanced students.
Just some thoughts.
What are you talking about? Do you think I'm going to ban you because I disagree with you? People aren't agreeing with me, they're agreeing with the call because they feel it was the correct one
I'll ask again: HOW was it a premature stop? The rules clearly state that a fight is stopped when one of the combatants is unable to intelligently defend himself. Not when they're bloodied up. Not when they look like they've been in a car wreck but when they cannot mount an intelligent defence. Last I checked, being splayed out stiff-legged with your arms on the floor isn't an intelligent defence. If you actually watch the fight, you'll see that there was no intelligent defence there
This is an irrelevant point. Boxing stoppages and MMA stoppages are completely different animals. In boxing you get a ten count and a standing-eight count to recover. In MMA, the guy's on top of you still smacking you in the face. Entirely different things hence in MMA a stoppage is called when no intelligent defence is being demonstrated
I always stand up for referees when I feel they make a correct call and it gets questioned. Having done some of it myself (amateur FC kickboxing and freestyle grappling tourneys) I can say that they do a completely thankless task and there are always people who have either an axe to grind or no idea what they're talking about, quick to jump in if they feel you've screwed up. I've called BS on many stoppages in combat sports over the years, both late and early, but I can't recall the last time I though McCarthy dropped the ball and in this case I don't either
Here's what McCarthy had to say on the matter:
And here are Liddell's post-fight comments
from MMAWeekly's article
I've seen this situation enough times in Japanese events. What happens is that the unconscious fighter takes the kind of damage that puts them in the hospital for a while and seriously impacts their future career. I don't want to see that happen to Liddell and I don't want to see it happen in the UFC, especially a main event because if it does, everything MMA has achieved in the West over the last few years will be gone in one fell swoop. The sponsors, the legitimacy, the positive coverage, the increased sanctioning, everything. That's all it'll take
Pretty simple. When Chuck was hit on the ground, he was knocked out. If you watched the fight live, you saw it. If you watched the replays from all angles you saw it. Chuck's legs go limp and flat, both arms flop to the ground, he's unconscience and can't defend himself. A second and third punch revives him, and he reacts defensively. Too late. A knockout is a knockout.
If there was any doubt in Chuck's or John Hackleman's mind that he was knocked out, there would have been a protest filed. People don't give up the world champion title that easy.
The statement by the ref, makes all of what I saw make sense, he mentions..."it kind of brought him back". So from what I saw about him being awake. Is after the brief time that he was out from only the first hit?
So he basically was out on his feet and that was when it was called, the ref might have even said something to Rampage to stop?
So was it a co-effort by aggreement, the ref and other admin? Then McCarthy did not stop it by himself?
After the fight was stopped, Liddell had a confused look on his face as if the match was halted prematurely. “He hit him with a big right hand that basically put him completely out. He lost consciousness; his legs went flat,” explained referee John McCarthy. “He actually got hit again as I was stopping the fight and it kind of brought him back; that happens all the time. Once it gets to the point when a fighter is unconscious, he can’t protect himself. We don’t have unconscious fighters getting beat on and that’s why we’re stopping the fight.”
What are you talking about? Do you think I'm going to ban you because I disagree with you?
Thanks for the post, of what John mentioned, and why he stopped it. Makes more sense now.
Chuck was not out on his feet. It was the first or second punch on the ground that knocked Chuck out. The next punch revived him. But it was obvious. At first he's on his back with his head and hands up trying to defend himself. Takes a shot to the head and both hands drop limply to the sides, his legs go limp, and his head and neck go limp. There's no question that he went unconscience. Next punch revives him, and his head and hands come back up, but it's too late. It happened that fast, from one punch to the next. Big John was right on top of it, and caught the knockout that most of us didn't even see until the replays.
So Gary, assuming the fight was allowed to go on because Chuck came to, do you think Rampage would have stopped pounding on his unprotected face for a moment? Do you think Chuck's face could have weathered the punishment of 20 or so more unanswered full fledged punches and elbows?
I agree, this is exactly what I saw live and in replay. Many refs may have missed it, or delyed long enough to allow the fight to continue, but Big John was right on top of it ... proves why they have him there and why he's the best.
I don't think what was shown in that video is usefull. If the guy actually took the time to figure out a good way to practice the crap he's teaching, he might come up with something better than the stuff he's showing in that video.
I was just watching it again. Did a slow mo deal
He was out for a brief, very brief time. He was in that position that the still was taken I guess. Your discription helped, to make it out better.
But still it was not as obvious as some are saying and it is not that many hits that he took.
Next topic, original that is.
KempoFist, I still believe you can learn to fight and watch at the same time along with receiving and giving punch's without full sparing.
Sparing helps some they say to gain confidence. But I am not sure if it is overconfidence and then they want to go hurt someone rather than learn to train and eat right and the 90% of what it takes to be someone who is into self defense.
Gary, does it help if I added that these guys train to take hits. Some people might be stunned or dazed but you would not be able to tell because they still appear to be fighting.
So no it is not obvious they are stunned, but some more than others learn what to look for so they have a better eye at spotting these things.
In the case of the hit Liddell took, I got the impression that Chuck was rocked good by Jackson's punch. Instead of standing and waiting to get clobbered by follow-up punches, Chuck went down to avoid further hits. This can be instinctive among fighters to bail out rather than be a sitting duck. Jackson followed up very quickly however, not giving Chuck enough time to recover and finished the job for the win.
This is my opinion from what I could tell.
Or rather he got rocked and his legs went on a short vacation.
That's what I thought what happened. But Chuck Liddell has the power of the Chuck (Norris). He doesn't get knocked down, he decided to fall cause he felt like it.
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