Unknowing sexism

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by Kframe, Oct 24, 2015.

  1. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Ok. I wanted to talk about a different facit of sexism. I was unsure if this topic was appropriate for the large sexism thread. So if it is a better fit there please mod me as you deem appropriate.

    Ok, my question is, is it possible to be unknowingly sexist? Let me give you a very specific example, using myself.

    As some know, I am doing a fanfic writing project. In that effort, I am also reading other stories, ones with a romance undertone. Reading books, as well as fanfics.

    What I have noticed, is that I can not relate to main characters who are female. I find it off putting to the point that I can't enjoy the book. When I read, my mind transposes myself on to the lead character. I see my self going through the story, if that makes sense.

    It's as if I can't allow my self to enjoy the book, and for some, illogical reason see female lead stories as unrealistic. Something I know is patently stupid. So why do I feel like this?

    Well, I was looking for romance(not erotica) novels and the vast majority are written from the females perspective. Including a huge amount of the non erotica visual novels.

    I just find it unappealing, and this fact disturbs me. I know that part of it, is my own homophobia, and the idea of visualizing myself, doing romantic things with another guy unpalatable.

    So, where does this fall into the sexism spectrum? Am I alone in the fact that I find it hard to enjoy novels/stories with a female lead, or even enjoy novels with a female lead/POV that includes hetero specific romance?

    This isn't just about romance, but action and danger and adventure as well.

    This is something I have to work out, as I need to keep reading other authors. Soon as my Alien story is done, I have a upcoming project that has no choice but to feature not one, not two, but THREE strong female leads. So I have to find a way to get over my issues. I have to be able to enjoy the story as I write it. (it was a story request from my daughter.)

    So guys and girls, have you faced this situation and if so, how did you deal with it?
     
  2. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Maybe the quality of fiction you are reading isn't high enough and therefore the characterisation isn't deep enough to transcend superficial gender paradigms.
     
  3. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    I can agree with that, but how do you address the homophoic aspect of it? Like I said, I find it hard to stomach the thought of doing that kind of stuff with another guy.

    Just to emphasize this more. I went over to my mom's house. She has a massive collection of published romance novels. I started reading them, and the same problems crept up. These are, what I would think, are real/ respected authors.

    If anyone should be able to bring me into the story, they should. Yet, I struggled with it.

    There is such a lack of non erotic, male targeted romance novels/stories out there. If it exists, then I must not be looking hard enough.
     
  4. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    I can't explain that sorry dude. You'll have to look to yourself to solve that one.

    Fiction isn't always about casting yourself into the body of the protagonist. Plenty of fiction out there with anti heroes and unreliable narrators etc. Mostly its about quality of observation of the human condition, characterisation and eloquence of prose for me at least.
     
  5. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Any suggestions on addressing this issue on my end? If I am to expand my ability as a writer I need to be able to read and write and enjoy stories from both POV.

    (It's what I get for agree'ing to do a story regarding Fairies)
     
  6. Nachi

    Nachi Valued Member Supporter

    That's an interesting topic and it's also kind of funny :D

    It would probably be best if you didn't imagine yourself as the main character or if you learned to be very empathic :D

    From a female point of view when I read about a male main character for example admiring a woman's body, I can't quite relate to that, either... (and from time to time I find narration like that somewhat sexist and more often quite unappealing to me). It's probably best to not try to perfectly understand the feelings of the main character or to temporarily imagine yourself as being the partner (that could probably help with the writing part?).

    Do you have this problem only with the romantic scenes or with any kind of story with a female lead?

    Writing that story is probably going to be tough. Do your best! :)
     
  7. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    So far, its mostly the romantic scenes I have issues with, but sometimes other scenes. Usually scenes of them "walking" through(IE fighting) hordes of evil male villains, and dominating them. Basically, them doing things, that generally speaking females cant physically do, barring magic.

    Imagining as the partner can work, as I have done that with movies featuring a female lead. Thinking about this topic, I am coming to the conclusion its my own homophobia that is the main issue.

    Maybe I just need to learn to detach my self, and enjoy the moment. So your suggestion to pop into the role of the partner, might be just what is called for.

    Yeah, my daughter watches Winx Club. So she asked me to do a story for it. So that means I have to watch the series with her. Which TBH is easier then I thought it would be, as the show is essentially Dragon Ball Z for girls. Or GI Joe Fairies that blow stuff up all the time.

    Of course, my story isn't about the Winx girls, but their nemisis' the Trix. Hence the 3 strong female leads.
     
  8. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    You know that it's equally fantasy when men do that in stories, right?

    It seems like you hold men up in unrealistically high esteem. Like you idolise them and can't see the same fantastical awesomeness in women.

    That and the homophobia... sorry to tell you man, but you're a closet homosexual :p
     
  9. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    David, first off LOL!

    Well, I was always raised with the notion that, all girls are weaker, and more emotionally unstable then men. Hence why we need to protect them.. Yes my father was a grade a sexist.

    Now, what is weird, is that I know it is equally unrealistic for men to walk through enemies, but for some reason, just feels more natural then a woman doing it.

    You know, looking back at the other thread, maybe some things are right. You just don't see many strong female leads. I remember watching She Ra, Xena, and La Fem Nakita.(original series) To my knowledge, they are the only strong, female leads that I can recall from my youth, that I was not bothered by. Though TBH Xena was very masculine.

    Maybe, from my writing perspective, I need to get emotionally invested in my female lead.. I am seriously invested in my male lead, Tom in my Alien story. So maybe I need to find a way to get invested.
     
  10. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    I find it's very dependent on the story and how well the character is written. I certainly enjoyed Cpt. Janeway, Laura Roslyn, Kara Thrace, and a few others which don't immediately spring to mind.

    I think it's the law of averages. The proportion of good characters is the same but the sample size is smaller.

    It's also often difficult for people to become subsumed by a character they think is unlike themselves. I tend to view them not as men or women but simply people equipped with different hardware and therefore different preset social challenges, just like ethnicity or skin colour. It goes a long way toward allowing for a balance of both masculine and feminine characteristics.

    It is possible to be unknowingly sexist. Judging whether you are indeed sexist can be difficult as standards are different year to year and culture to culture. You don't necessarily have to enjoy the male/ female narratives equally though. I enjoy a strong male protagonist better but that doesn't make me sexist. I have plenty of preferences when it comes to stories.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2015
  11. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I was brought up with more female influence than male, and have always had close female friends, so I just don't see the divide the same as you. It's funny how much our youngest years shape us, huh?

    Immediately I can think of films I saw quite young with great strong women in them - Brazil, Robocop, Total Recall, Nikita (the original French film), Alien & Aliens. Earlier TV series too, like Cagney and Lacey.

    Remember in the thread about your book I mentioned how Ripley was written as a male part in the script? Maybe that's how you get your invested and realistic female - write her as a man and then change the name (and "hardware", as SWC Sifu Ben said, if necessary to the story) in the edit?
     
  12. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Oh, and I have no problem imagining women kick bum, but I get grossed out at any romance in stories. Romance and sex in books almost always comes across as filler to me - very rarely does it advance the story or concepts of the book in any way, and I can't help but picture the author all excited and slathering over their keyboard.
     
  13. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    I can think of a few books which have a love story as their central narrative and from which the majority of the thematic discourse is generated. Depends how its handled and to what end.
     
  14. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Yeah, I have never read a book where romance is the central theme, and I tend to resent it when it's a secondary theme.

    Horses for course and all that :)
     
  15. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    Yeah. I think there are as many instances - on reflection - of it being crowbarred in for genre convention (hero gets girl) or there for titillating. Quality writing usually never sinks to that level though. If you are interested there is a great book called 'love remsins' by Glen Duncan which while narratively implausible at times in its conclusion, does contain a beautifully realised warts and all romance whose doomed fate serves as a catalyst for some great observations on human relationships, human weakness and the nature of love. It has violence and swearing too so all bases covered ;)
     
  16. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    That's exactly what I did for my character Cat. She is written like a man, but is female. I found her easy to do, as she is Tom's current(soon to be ex) girlfriend. What is funny is attitudinally, she is very masculine, while Tom is not, he is almost passive in a way.
     
  17. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Well, I don't like erotica, as I find it distasteful. However, I love a good romantic scene, one filled with emotion. So far, I have a few spicy scenes in my story, nothing involving full intercourse, but each one, drives the story forward. My intention from the get go, was to make Cat and Tom feel like a real couple.

    My opinion is sex in a book for sex's sake is filler and waste of time. However if it helps the story, then a few good scenes of it is no problem, as long as the emotional component takes center stage.

    In the Case of Cat and Tom, the spicy scenes, establish his own fear of intimacy and how afraid of relationships he really is, thanks in large part to Cara.
     
  18. Frodocious

    Frodocious She who MUST be obeyed! Moderator Supporter

    Interesting. I've never had a problem empathising with either male or female leads and I never viewed Xena as masculine. Perhaps you see her as masculine because of the way you perceive that women should be and how they should behave, so any female character who doesn't conform to those stereotypes would come across as masculine to you.


    I remember an interview with Amanda Tapping (who played Samantha Carter in SG1) where she stated that she told the writers to write the character the same way they wrote the male characters and she would make the character female. In the earlier seasons they did just that, however, in the last few seasons the writers started writing the female characters in a much more stereotypical way and it started, at least for me to get cringeworthy and unrealistic.
     
  19. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    When I read, I don't pretend to be the characters, I just read the story, and view it in a third person Perspective.

    If you need to write romance, picture your ideal woman, imagine you want to be romantic and impress her, write then scene, and then rewrite it from her perspective. You don't have to imagine doing a guy, to write a love scene.

    Maybe reading some classic remixes may help, pride and predudice and zombies is very entertaining!
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2015
  20. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    [ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=epR30eRfTVo[/ame]
     

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